DH and DD's 'inappropriate' clothing..

[newdocket]

DD (nearly 12) just got changed into a pair of shorts and a strappy top with a small cut out in it. She has no cleavage to speak of currently. I didn't really think anything of it.

When DH came in for dinner he told her that she would need to change her top before they went out to an activity together. She didn't want to change and he ended up going into a big rant about how her clothing would be sending out inappropriate signals and that wearing tops exposing cleavage was essentially a way of attracting the wrong sort of attention from the opposite sex.

She changed (under duress) and they've now gone off. I'm now reflecting on the conversation and feeling a bit 'wrong' about it. Essentially, I don't want her being told what she can and can't wear because of how this might make men behave inappropriately. Also, she's still very young and I don't think is even thinking in terms of attracting male attention. On the other hand, I do get that there are certain things I wouldn't really want her to wear and perhaps if she did have cleavage I might feel differently. I don't know.

Is there a 'right' way to go about this? I just have a general feeling that this isn't it, without really having any answers.

I would definitely not put up with this. And in front of your sons. Terrible message.

I have RTFT @TatianaLarina. I meant that I lost al sympathy for the OP's DH point if view when I read that he'd gone into a "big rant".

But hey, why not pick my comment up as noteworthy when there have been so many odd and frankly worrying comments on the thread eh?

It wasn’t clear what you meant tbh.

We can agree on having zero sympathy for DH’s rants.

People on this thread seem to be confusing telling a child to change their clothes with telling a child that they are sending out the wrong signals to men. The first is ok, the second is not. The op says her DH did tell latter. And did it as a 'rant.' That's what the problem is here. There are ways to get a child to change their top without victim blaming.

My parents were extremely conservative and made me feel like I was doing something wrong and sexually inappropriate by wearing clothes like the top you described when the thought hadn't even crossed my mind. They were absolute victim blamers. My mum even told me that Jade Goody deserved contracting cancer because she had sex with lots of men.

Your daughter shouldn't be made to feel guilty or like she is doing something wrong by wearing clothes that she likes.

Sexual clothing is not to do with how much it shows. Anything can be sexualised. Just think school girls uniforms. It's not the clothing itself. It's horrible that young girls have to worry about that. If she has no breasts yet she could even go topless. Something I see often in other countries. Girls on the beach with just bikini bottoms. Why wear what is effectively a bra if you have no breasts? But that's is another topic... Men have so much freedom. It makes me angry that we will never have a topic discussing how short are boys shorts. That they should put a shirt on otherwise their toned body will send the wrong message... It's all very one sided

Teeniemiff

I think any dad probably doesn’t like to think about his daughter getting attention from a male.

^ totally agree with this

It's a difficult one. I can understand your DH's point of view up to a point but not the way he's handled it. Getting angry with your DD has potentially made it difficult for her to open up if, heaven forbid, anything does happen.

@expatinspain, we had a really good conversation about it earlier. He's spoken to her and apologised for the way he went about it and said that girls'/womens' clothing is never responsible for boy's/men's shitty behaviour. This was also discussed with the boys. Any further conversations on these kind of issues will hopefully be had in a non-shaming and kinder way...

OMG listen to yourselves!

OP you will never get an unbiased opinion in this section of MN.

A 12yr old should dress like a 12yr old, she will be judged by BOTH men and women having an opinion on her clothes, and as she was out with Dad they would probably blame him for allowing her to dress that way.

That's great OP. Sometimes parents, especially fathers with daughters, have a hard time seeing their kids growing up.

Your husband is obviously wrong.

He needs to learn that a woman of any age can dress, behave and talk in any way she likes, but that any subsequent male misbehaviour in the context of that dressing, behaviour and talk is solely the fault of the man - in short that. although a woman's place is no longer in the home, a man's place is infallibly and always in the wrong.

I remember being your daughter's age and my father saying something very similar. I can tell you it was extremely confusing!! You cannot tell a child to get changed without a proper explanation they will understand!!
If he feels uncomfortable with her choice of t-shirt maybe he is being over protective. As her parents you should agree on appropriate clothing for your children, without the guilt trip!

If she'll be too cold in what she's wearing, tell her so. If you know that those shoes give her blisters, remind her. Otherwise, it isn't any of your business what she wears. She has an absolute right to go wherever she wants, dressed however she wants, without receiving unwanted attention.

How do we achieve such a scenario? Feminism. Specifically education of men and boys.

In the mean time? Teach her to do whatever the fuck she wants, so long as it doesn't harm herself or others.

There's no proven correlation between sexual crimes and clothing. If a man gets sexual thoughts about a woman he sees in the street, he should bloody well control himself. If he gets sexual thoughts about a child, he should get therapy. Simple as. It has absolutely nothing to do with your daughter - it is men's own decisions that potentially put her at risk, not her own.

Happy to see that your DH seems to be taking this on board. Much less happy to see some of the comments from those that are raising the future generations.

As a mum of 4 grown boys and 2 teen girls just what argumentivefeminist said.

If her dad is thinking that way maybe all men are thinking that way.

Think you all need to sit down and just talk it through.
Whilst I don't agree with what your dh said as it will give your children the impression that harassment of is about sexuality not power or an abuse of power, I do remember going on holiday to Greece with my dad in my early 20s and he got a lot of nasty comments from people who thought he was a much older man with a very young woman.
I think the three of you need to have a sit down and talk it through?

'how her clothing would be sending out inappropriate signals'

She is out with her dad, what 'signals' could any man possibly think she was giving out!

I think I'd talk to her about any dangers from males separately from her clothing. Being bossed around by her dad isn't going to help her to stand up to men in general. She would be better off being empowered to know her own mind, her own boundaries and to keep herself safe.

Plus who wants to do go and do an activity with someone who has just been really unpleasant with them!

your dh needs to understand she is growing up.

If any item of clothing is genuinely unsuitable for something a more calm discussion about it may be better.

Great post @argumentativefeminist

If we all lived in a utopian society, it would not matter how women dressed. However, we live in the Real world.

I have learned the hard way bc nobody advised me about how to dress that dressing in certain ways sends certain messages. This is an obvious fact.

Also, I have a ds who speaks frankly to me and his sister; men judge us by our clothes and base their actions to women by the signals that they send. One signal is how we dress.

I think that op's dh knows what my ds tells his sister.

MY dh very seldom tells dd anything except compliments. I have chastised him bc it is not her brother's job, but her father's to explain to dd that respecting oneself includes dressing appropriately.

Before 500 people tell me all the women's rights blather about freedom to wear seethrough blouses or ripped daisey duke shorts, again, this is not a utopian society and if one dresses invingly, people will feel invited.

To vindicate my unpopular viewpoint, I concur with the theory that women should wear what they want and I do not believe that dressing invitingly means women deserve to be hurt.

Currently, dd dresses in a uniform for work and is being "leered" at by a pervert who could be her father's age. She reported him but he is passive agressively torturing her. Sometimes, it does not matter how you dress. But my advice to her is to dress appropriately in a way that pleases herself but does not draw undo attention or send the wrong message....and we all know that there is a provocative style of dress.

OP, tell your husband not to be rude about his opinion and to explain himself specifically to his dd. (Unless he is a jerk dh/father, he must feel bad). If he is not controlling in general, he is probably fairly knowledgeable about what he is saying and being protective.

Explain to dd that respecting oneself includes dressing appropriately and not provocatively except in specific instances.

Oh, and both dh and I have repeatedly seen men double look at dd while at stores or restaurants with dd. I have put my purse in front of her bottom and glared at the foul men as she was and is a teen. Dh glares at them as well. It does not matter that she is in jeans and tee shirt. Men are pretty much dogs. I have seen boys trip trying for a better look.

So "signals" are still there with parents....Even when "appropriately" dressed.

Nice one, OP, I like that happy ending.

We were on holidays a month ago and DD12 - who does look a little bit older than she is, not a huge amount - was, for the first time, attracting attention from what looked like 20-something year old men when we were at the beach and she was wearing her bikini. It is, however, one of the most conservative bikinis you could imagine, she was doing absolutely nothing whatsoever to attract attention, and I was horrified at the men's behaviour. How this will affect our holidays to come, I can't say, because though I don't feel she should be penalised for men behaving like dickheads, I also don't want her to suffer a load of unpleasant attention from these freaks. Maybe we have to save up for private islands in future.

great update.
In an ideal world we should be able to wear whatever we want. We mustn't blame the wearer on the fucked up perception of society but sadly it is fucked up and a 12 year old will get viewed sexually especially if wearing certain things.

Good update OP.

Catsinthecupboard

Also, I have a ds who speaks frankly to me and his sister; men judge us by our clothes and base their actions to women by the signals that they send. One signal is how we dress

Why the fuck are you not educating your son about this misogynist nonsense?

Attitudes that could get him into major trouble in a social or professional environment.

You’re the parent - you should be educating him not the other way round.

Ironically your DD’s situation at work is clear example that clothes have nothing to do with the sexual harassment. As, is your example of her being leered at in jeans and a tshirt.

You’ve totally undermined your own point.

And as for ‘men are pretty much dogs’. Get some help. And some standards.

I find it difficult from my point of view I don't want my DDs (7 and 3) dressing in clothes that make them look older than they are, not because I worry that they will get unwanted male attention but because I don't want them to grow up too fast, there's plenty of time for them to go out partying etc when they are a bit bigger. I don't know how Id feel in your situation OP as 12 is near teenage and the awkward point when girls (and boys) stop being kids but aren't quite adults either