DH and DD's 'inappropriate' clothing..

[newdocket]

DD (nearly 12) just got changed into a pair of shorts and a strappy top with a small cut out in it. She has no cleavage to speak of currently. I didn't really think anything of it.

When DH came in for dinner he told her that she would need to change her top before they went out to an activity together. She didn't want to change and he ended up going into a big rant about how her clothing would be sending out inappropriate signals and that wearing tops exposing cleavage was essentially a way of attracting the wrong sort of attention from the opposite sex.

She changed (under duress) and they've now gone off. I'm now reflecting on the conversation and feeling a bit 'wrong' about it. Essentially, I don't want her being told what she can and can't wear because of how this might make men behave inappropriately. Also, she's still very young and I don't think is even thinking in terms of attracting male attention. On the other hand, I do get that there are certain things I wouldn't really want her to wear and perhaps if she did have cleavage I might feel differently. I don't know.

Is there a 'right' way to go about this? I just have a general feeling that this isn't it, without really having any answers.

Although it seems not the case with ops daughter, it is naive to assume that no 11/12 year old girls are trying to attract male attention by what they wear. My daughter is 11 with a 12 year old best friend. They went shopping together last weekend and she told me her frind had been catcalled a lot. I said I thought that was disgusting, why would men cat call a 12 year old and my daughters reply was that her friend had made herself look older with heels, make up and a push up bra. My daughter is also very tall for her age but tragic that a 12 year old feels the need to do that and tragic there are grown men out there who feel that behaviour is appropriate.

It is NEVER acceptable to insult, assault or rape someone because of the clothes they are wearing.

That said, people wear clothes to suit different situations. A suit to a business meeting to look professional, expensive sports clothes to fit in at the gym, revealing clothes to look sexy.

As a teacher, I've heard year 7 girls telling each other to wear shorter skirts to fit in, year 11s discussing how much cleavage to show to look "hot" on a date, boys talking about how to dress on non-uniform day to impress girls. Most teenagers aren't unaware of the messages that their clothes send off. My DD is only 6, and I wouldn't want her wearing a crop top. She wouldn't be doing it to be sexy, but she would be copying how adults and teenagers dress when they want to be sexy.

As I said, abuse is still absolutely the abusers fault.

I’m fucking gobsmacked by the amount of women on here who are slut-shaming and victim blaming.

For me its not about the clothes or whether or not they were suitable it was the way it was approached and the manner that he did it - hardly conducive to good relations ordering her about and making it about being slutty to appeal to boys - how to kill body confidence in a preteen. Far better to have said - we are off to x you will need a more substantial top on that that/something more appropriate to what we are doing etc.

A small cut out on a normal t shirt doesn't send out messages on a prepubesent body.

Ranting at her about being sleazily dressed and attracting perverts being oggled at gives her all the wrong messages about it being her fault people oggle her, make her self consious, give her a fear of people (so acting a victim) setting her up for a life time of self criticism and guilt destroying her confidence

"The insinuation that she is responsible for safeguarding herself against predatory behaviour is one I would not like my DD to hear"

I honestly do not understand this argument....no-one but the criminal is responsible for the crime, yes - that I can understand. But to say that a person has no responsibility to keep themselves safe?

I do not follow the logic of most posters here - by the same arguments, I take it no-one locks their front door/ car etc? After all, its the criminals fault if they rob your stuff. Asking the homeowner to take the simple precaution of locking the house is victim blaming right?

Why do children and young women need to wear clothes that expose or cling to their chests/ bum? Boys and young men manage to keep cool in shorts and T-shirts, and yet it is next to impossible to buy girls shorts (even for very young girls) that cover the butt cheeks this season.....the fault is with a clothing industry that makes these overly sexualised clothes and with us all for not boycotting them. Why do we cover our sons bodies more than our daughters?

What did your husband say when you spoke to him OP?

It is really difficult. I don’t think your husband handled it very well. But at the same time, I was once your daughter - 12 years old and prepubescent wearing what my mum considered a too close fitting top and short shorts etc. My mum wanted me to change my top as she felt it was too revealing (I had nothing) and I refused. Two hours later I was being physically assaulted by a sick pedio who had managed to get me away from my dad. It’s affected me all my adult life. I once met a lady on some sort of board of abused children that said unfort young prepubescent girls dressing in revealing outfits are exciting pedios. Is it right? Is it fair - no it’s not. I don’t have the answers. But I think you should consider maybe not being mad at your husband and sitting down for a rational chat about how you both feel about things and the way forward. I think you daughter not feeling that she should be ashamed of her body is key.

Without seeing the outfit, is hard to judge. It kind of depends where you are going very often.
I am not sure how you STOP unpleasant immature men from ogling women or girls. I am struggling to find a way through this without sounding neolithic myself. I suspect the conversation should have been had in private between you two first.

This is tough!

On the one hand - i dont agree women should have to dress to suit anyone but themselves and it is certainly no excuse for men to do what they fancy!

But on the other hand, i really dont like women putting it all out on show, i dont really want to see it and you cant not look when you're out and than - bam too much info! kids dressing like adults does kind of get me feeling weird and to dress in a way that is sexy as a kid really is a no for me. I dont even like little girls in bikinis, just unnecessary sexualisation.

But at the end of the day - a creep who picks on girls will pick on them whatever they where.

I would probably say 'wear what you want, to make you happy, but dont put it all on show.' she's still too young to get it, but i would steer my daughter into respecting herself by not being too revealing - and it will attract sleezy teenage boys very quickly.

But it's your call. Talk with other half about what is and isnt ok for both of you (i wouldnt have let my 12yr have a top with a cut out) set the boundary and gently teach her what is ok and not ok.

I agree @RB68 that the way it was approached is the problem rather than intentions.

It would have been better to have spoken aside to you and said 'I'm not comfortable with DD wearing the top, it looks like something an older girl would wear and I'm worried blokes will leer at her' so you could have responded and maybe found a better approach.

There are clothes on sale that are inappropriate for young girls to wear but parents think nothing of buying and letting them wear it. My parents would never let me wear an outfit like that as it's not acceptable or age appropriate. You and your husband have clearly very different views on what your daughter should wear. I don't blame him from getting angry, why let your daughter encourage unwanted attention from boys and other men.

'Sexy' clothes are not ok for children, they are not equipped to fend off the unwanted attention, which they are not responsible for and don't understand.
We teach them not to walk in the road without looking, though cars have brakes.
If you put your purse in your bag or pocket to keep it safe that is sensible. Leave it on the table it's more likely to be stolen, not your fault, it should be safe, the thief is still to blame, but it's a risk

There are adult clothes and children’s clothes. There is a huge difference in the things I would be wearing as a woman in my 30s and what I would allow my DD at 12 to wear.
As an adult I am comfortable in my sexuality and confident enough to deal with any attention it may bring. I am mature emotionally and am more aware of dangers and dangerous situations.
A 12yr old would not have this same awareness and would be naive to potential unwanted advances.
It is your job as a parent to protect your children from danger until they are old enough to do it themselves, and for that reason I agree with your DH.
The way he went about it probably wasn’t the best but essentially he was parenting her and trying to keep her safe. No good can come from young people dressing too sexually or old for their age. Either girls or boys... but unfortunately the discrepancy in age appropriate clothes falls predominantly onto girls.

'Sexy' clothes are not ok for children, they are not equipped to fend off the unwanted attention, which they are not responsible for and don't understand.

They get that attention whatever they're wearing. Making them police their clothing just makes them feel responsible for this attention - which they can't control even by policing their clothing.

I'd have interfered. The entire scene is wrong. Calling her up as if she is doing something wrong in front of the entire family. Wrong. Speak to him that this is tgekind of situation is better handled by you as a fellow female. I can imagine how she felt that her dad would even think of her like that for a second. Cringe. She is too young. I see he is trying to protect her but still I just feel is wrong. I remember my grandfather complaining about my short skirt when I was 13. Imagine ! It bothered me so much that I still remember. I felt unease. Also remember my lovely grandmother coming to my rescue and hugging me saying that I looked lovely. That scene stayed in my had for over 30 years. And he didn't make me change my clothes.

If a man wants to abuse your daughter, he will do it no matter what she’s wearing. Ask your husband if he often blames women and girls for being attacked by men.

This is exactly it.

You need a serous conversation with your DH. And then a serious family discussion with him and all your children.

Anyone who says clothing isn’t sexual and doesn’t attract sexualised attention is fucking deluded.
If you dress in a sexual way i.e. showing a lot of skin, cleavage, short skirts etc then be prepared for men to look. Nothing wrong with it if you’re comfortable with it and able to cope with that attention... 12 yr olds are not and shouldn’t be dressing that way.

Not everyone who gets raped is dressed sexy, not every child who is ogled is dressed sexually... however children presenting themselves as sexual through their choices in clothes (whether intentional or not) is not ok.

He's the parent of an 11-year-old child, not a young adult. It's a parent's prerogative to exercise some authority over what their children wear. I would personally not allow my 11-year-old to wear short shorts or a strappy top with a cut-out either because I think they look too adult. Other parents obviously make different decisions. FWIW I wouldn't buy my son short shorts or a sleeveless top either. I prefer my DC to wear clothes that cover more of their bodies (say for e.g. shoulders, stomachs and thighs) and I don't think DC of either sex look nicely or appropriately dressed in skimpy outfits unless they are on the beach or similar.

I personally feel that people in general show way too much cleavage and wouldn’t allow my daughter to wear it.

I AGRee with the wrong kind of attention - it’s not about sexual assault. It’s about sexual thoughts, sexual connotations etc...and like it or not....clothing does impact on what a person feels about the wearer of the clothes.

I am not saying that clothes are an excuse for this innappropraite behaviour and are absolutely no reason for assault.

I’m a single parent and I do this and am a feminist. No Dad around am both it seems,, there are lots of inappropriate people. Can see both sides.

For me its not about the clothes or whether or not they were suitable it was the way it was approached and the manner that he did it - hardly conducive to good relations ordering her about and making it about being slutty to appeal to boys - how to kill body confidence in a preteen. Far better to have said - we are off to x you will need a more substantial top on that that/something more appropriate to what we are doing etc.

A small cut out on a normal t shirt doesn't send out messages on a prepubesent body.

Ranting at her about being sleazily dressed and attracting perverts being oggled at gives her all the wrong messages about it being her fault people oggle her, make her self consious, give her a fear of people (so acting a victim) setting her up for a life time of self criticism and guilt destroying her confidence

Agreed. One of the best posts on the thread.

You lost me at "rant" op

Telling an 11 year old girl that she is sending ‘inappropriate signals’ to men and is dressing in a way that attracts ‘the wrong sort of attention’ is potentially highly distressing and damaging. It’s totally inappropriate for her age group.

There are neutral ways to ask a child to change their clothing without holding her responsible for male reactions, and essentially accusing her of dressing to attract male attention which is actually quite frightening for her age.

I remember a few years back, there were a a lot of threads on MN about the huge number of children’s clothes that “sexualised” young girls. The comments here about slut shaming are a bit at odds with that, I think.

I have a foster child aged 12 and we were out for a walk on Sunday. She wanted to wear one of these cold shoulder, strappy tops that showed an awful lot (think it was a bit big for her really), you could see her bra through the massive holes on the arms. Plus it was cropped so belly button on display. I just said no, that’s not appropriate and she went off to change with no arguments. I just could not have felt comfortable with her off on a walk with us dressed like that, I’m sorry if that’s seen as slut shaming but I just couldn’t.

Why comment then Practice if you haven’t even bothered to read the OP?