Well, it’s happened... the trans activists have waded into the 8th amendment issue in Ireland

[AngeloMysterioso]

And are apparently pushing for the language in the repeal legislation to be “gender neutral”.

Quote from the article-

“Despite what some may believe, men can become pregnant too. There are tens of thousands of transgender men and non-binary people in Ireland who can conceive, and when speaking about reproductive healthcare, we must always be mindful of that.

“It’s imperative that newly written legislation uses inclusive language. By including this, trans men and non binary people will not hit legal barriers should they need to receive an abortion. By using the term pregnant people in new legislation, as well as protecting women, we are also protecting and respecting all gender identities should a crisis pregnancy occur.”

So. That’s nice. Thousands upon thousands of women have suffered, many have died, because of bullshit like the 8th amendment. And after fighting so hard for so fucking long and finally winning the right to bodily autonomy and reproductive rights, if the TAs get their way, we get to be referred to as pregnant people

I’m a bit of a TERF at the best of times but this is beyond fucking insulting. Savita Halappanavar wasn’t a pregnant person. Michelle Harte wasn’t a pregnant person. Sheila Hodges wasn’t a pregnant person.

If the TDs capitulate and let this happen I will be really pissed off.

Update to thread:
GCN (Gay Community News) article:
'Mary Lou McDonald Calls For Abortion Legislation To Be Inclusive Of Trans, Non-Binary And Intersex People
The Sinn Féin leader urged the government to ensure that trans, non-binary and intersex people are included in the wording of the bill.'
17 OCTOBER, 2018.

"Amid Dáil debate over the legislation of abortion services, the Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald has called for increased clarity in the abortion bill, as well as for the wording of the legislation to be inclusive of transgender, non-binary and intersex people.

McDonald also urged members of the Oireachtas not to delay the legislation through “filibustering”.

McDonald said: “This legislation will require very, very careful thought and deliberation.”

Additionally, McDonald stressed that the language of the abortion bill must be reflective of the “diversity of the society in which we live”.

“I am asking very, very simply that we have a full, deliberative and frank debate. But I am appealing to colleagues not to abuse the rules and regulations and latitude of the houses of the Oireachtas to delay and delay and delay legislation which already carries the democratic imprimatur and approval of the Irish people”.

Solidarity/People Before Profit TD Paul Murphy echoed McDonald’s concerns regarding the exclusion of trans, non-binary and intersex people from the wording of the bill. Murphy said that trans and intersex people may encounter difficulties seeking termination services if the legislation exclusively refers to women.

“Trans men have the capacity to become pregnant, as do non-binary people, but certainly under any strict reading of the bill, [they] would be unable to access abortion”.

Murphy said he would be eager to hear the government’s response to his concerns, and urged them to include more inclusive terms in the wording of the bill.
Earlier this month, Minister for Health Simon Harris introduced a bill that would legalise abortion services in Ireland.

Harris spoke about the need to legislate as soon as possible:

“Today we begin the job [the voters] have given us, of making the law that follows the repeal of the Eighth Amendment and after 35 years in the Constitution, in doing so we are also making history.”

The government are aiming for the bill legalising abortion services to be passed well in advance of 2019."

gcn.ie/mary-lou-mcdonald-abortion-legislation-inclusive-trans-non-binary-intersex-people/

AngeloMysterioso I’m a bit of a TERF at the best of times but this is beyond fucking insulting. Savita Halappanavar wasn’t a pregnant person. Michelle Harte wasn’t a pregnant person. Sheila Hodges wasn’t a pregnant person.

If they were pregnant and persons, then...they were. They were also pregnant humans or pregnant women or anythingh else that they were also in addition to being pregnant. Don't think anyone is saying otherwise.

Sleepless123456789 Why is this even an issue? The right for an abortion has been won, and if the law says 'people' rather than 'women' then it reduces the chance for court cases later on?

It is not an issue other than to those who want it to be one. In legal terms it makes perfect sense to be gender neutral. Imagine the quibbling some lawyers might attempt if the laws on rape for example were not written gender-neutrally. So rather than talking about penises and orifices, they instead talked about "a man penetrating..."

I don't have a problem with 'pregnant person' is as only biological women can get pregnant and this will legally cover all biological women regardless of how they identify.

Well unless they are taking about seahorses (and their close family) I don't think a male can get pregnant. If a person born a woman undergoes hormone treatment and surgery to look like a man, they cant get pregnant. People who arbitrarily decide they are a bloke - could get pregnant because they are a woman, who are obviously having sex as a woman, if they just accept they are a woman, (albeit who don't feel they conform to gender norms prefer to be called he and called scarlett rather than steven) then this would not be a problem would it?

O what absolute bollox.

FFS!!! Women get pregnant, not men, not ever. It was women who campaigned, it was women who have suffered over years and years, can’t they see that, fucking fools!

It is a load of bollix.

I just had a very rare morning alone in a nice cafe, after finishing my tea I went to the restroom to find only gender neutral toilets. The 3 stalls occupied by men, the smell was horrendous. It is beyond a joke, everyone is to pc but there is no privacy.

O tomatoes I feel for you. Those stinkers are usually booted out by partners who refuse to let them stink out the home they're privileged to share. Blecchh.

It was awful... Thomas Beatty the worlds first pregnant man. Even then when I seen the headlines I taught how the heck. I taught maybe a miracle occurred, but NO no miracle just a woman identifying as a man pregnant.

OK, as I've noted on this and other threads, Ireland has been transed without any say or input from women, and over here, feminists are only delighted with themselves that they are showing the way to the luddites in the UK - I kid you not, a boast from an Irish comedian writing in our pro trans newspaper the Irish Times (like an Irish Guardian) boasted that she was thrilled when Women's Hour commented that Ireland already had full self ID - yes, with thanks to those who trampled over the rights of biological females.

I laugh when I see Sinn Fein argue for this - I can imagine the attitude of the IRA towards trans, non binary and whatever you're having yourself.

I honestly hadn't realised until this week that 85% of trans people haven't transitioned. Do we know why this is? I'm genuinely interested in this debate, consider myself a feminist but a liberal person who has always been very accepting of different people and however they wish to refer to themselves. I feel conflicted on this because good friends, liberal thinking, good people, are telling me that if I side with feminists I am a TERF and transphobe. I don't feel like one, and I'm trying desperately to see it from another perspective. I was shouted down on Facebook by a (male) friend who I consider very intelligent and well informed because I questioned safe spaces and safeguarding issues after he shared a Stonewall post asking 'everyone who believes in trans rights to reply to the consultation'. I said that surely women should have a right to express an opinion, publicly, about the proposed changes that may impact on them - citing specifically survivors of rape and male violence. His mates waded in to tell me not to be so silly, there were no safeguarding issues and anyway, what about the mental health of trans people, who are equally victims of male violence and need somewhere safe to go? What about protecting all those vulnerable people, at risk of suicide etc, rather than the odd woman or two who might be affected by changes (they said there's no evidence it's a safeguarding issue) I am genuinely perplexed by all of this, it's as if I've grown another head when I ask a genuine question, worded as politely as possible, about protecting women's rights.

WTAF...

Women get pregnant, therefore women give birth or women get abortions. It's really that simple.

Sinn Fein want to be PC too, feck womens rights, once everyone looks modern and does not offend especially the LGBTQIA community.

And people on here, twitter and elsewhere wonder why many of us have problems with the whole transgender issue.

Apparently one of the local hospitals to me has changed all of their maternity guidelines/polices and removed the word "woman" throughout and replaced it with "person".

My late DM was fond of quoting the second wave feminist line (can't remember who came up with it originally) "If men got pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament."

Abortion is a women's issue as a political issue, quite distinct from the fucking obvious fact that biologically speaking only women can get pregnant, precisely because for fucking millenia men have denied women personhood and exerted control over women's fertility. It wasn't women Catholic priests preaching sermons against "Repeal the 8th" for the simple reason that there aren't any fucking women priests, it's a men's club telling women what they're allowed to do with their own bodies. (Yes, that's a lot of uses of the word "fucking" but this issue does get me fucking angry - because of the tens of thousands of women world wide who die every year because they're denied access to safe abortion.)

Fermats you dm was spot on there!

I honestly hadn't realised until this week that 85% of trans people haven't transitioned.

If you mean genital surgery it's actually quite a bit higher. Hardly anyone has it, for various reasons.

Fairplay for Women have a detailed article about this with sourced statistics etc:
'The vast majority of male-born transwomen still have a penis'
July 2018
(extract)
How big is the transgender population in the UK?
There is no robust data on the number of trans people in the UK. Data on gender identity is not collected in any government social survey. However, estimates are in the region of 1% of the UK population identifying as transgender.

1. In 2009 the Gender Identity Research and Education Service (GIRES, a transgender lobby organisation) published a report that was funded by the Home Office. This first estimate of the size of the trans population in the UK, based on research from the USA and Netherlands, data from Gender Recognition Panels and Gender Identity Clinics.
   GIRES estimated the trans population (i.e. people who experience some degree of gender variance) was approximately 0.6% – 1% of the UK adult population. However, it does appear that this estimate is largely based on studies of men who cross-dress, and the estimate of most (80%) of trans people being born male. (continues)

2. In 2018, the UK government has produced an estimate for the GRA consultation based on the lowest (0.35%) and highest (1%) prevalence rates, based on a Californian study in 2016 and the 2009 GIRES study.
   The government estimates 200,000 – 500,000 adults identify as transgender in the UK. See page 82 of the government’s consultation document. (continues)

How many transgender people legally transition?
The number of GRC that have been granted since 2004 is 4,910 (June 2018). Three quarters are owned by male-born transgender people and mostly aged 50+. Based on prevalence estimate of 200,000-500,000 trans in UK this means only 1-3% of trans people have changed the sex on their birth certificate. The overwhelming majority of trans people remain legally the sex their were born.

How many transgender people medically transition?
In 2011, GIRES estimated that only 20% of the UK transgender population are likely to seek medical treatment for their condition at some stage. Based on a UK trans prevalence of 1% and assuming a 50:50 split of males and females that means there are 200,000 male-born transgender people in the UK will no body modifications whatsoever. Of the 50,000 trans-identifying males that do seek medical treatment most of these would be expected to be undergoing hormone treatment and/or breast implants. Only a very small proportion of this 20% will be have genital reconstruction surgery.

No one knows for sure how many transwomen keep their penis, but there are fewer than 10 surgeons in the UK who can do the relevant operation. Even if they each performed one operation every single day this would still only represent an absolute max of 3,500 surgeries each year. The actual number performed is likely to be very much smaller than this. An estimate of just a few hundred operation each year would not be unreasonable.

Conclusions:
We don’t know how many transgender people there are in the UK but estimates are up to 1%. The vast majority do not have a GRC and so remain legally the sex they were born. The vast majority also do not seek medical treatment so retain the anatomy of their birth.
Contrary to public perception the overwhelming majority of male-born transgender people retain their penis and are fully male-bodied."
fairplayforwomen.com/penis/