Well, it’s happened... the trans activists have waded into the 8th amendment issue in Ireland

[AngeloMysterioso]

And are apparently pushing for the language in the repeal legislation to be “gender neutral”.

Quote from the article-

“Despite what some may believe, men can become pregnant too. There are tens of thousands of transgender men and non-binary people in Ireland who can conceive, and when speaking about reproductive healthcare, we must always be mindful of that.

“It’s imperative that newly written legislation uses inclusive language. By including this, trans men and non binary people will not hit legal barriers should they need to receive an abortion. By using the term pregnant people in new legislation, as well as protecting women, we are also protecting and respecting all gender identities should a crisis pregnancy occur.”

So. That’s nice. Thousands upon thousands of women have suffered, many have died, because of bullshit like the 8th amendment. And after fighting so hard for so fucking long and finally winning the right to bodily autonomy and reproductive rights, if the TAs get their way, we get to be referred to as pregnant people

I’m a bit of a TERF at the best of times but this is beyond fucking insulting. Savita Halappanavar wasn’t a pregnant person. Michelle Harte wasn’t a pregnant person. Sheila Hodges wasn’t a pregnant person.

If the TDs capitulate and let this happen I will be really pissed off.

Well you can’t have Irish Women’s rights finally becoming a thing, can you? 🙄

Somethin 💐

Why do you care? It doesn't make any difference to you how the legislation is worded.

I assume that anyone who isn't Irish is also "wading in" or is it only trans people who wade?

There are less than 6 million people in the whole of Ireland (the 6 counties and the republic included). Can there really be tens of thousands of such a small population who are transgende or non binary and able to conceive?

No, you’re right. It’s symbolic. And a handy vehicle for all the misogynists and handmaidens to jump on.

Delusional bullshit and everyone will be falling all over themselves to nod and agree.......or else.

Out of interest are there any reliable statistics on the number of trans men and trans women in Ireland or indeed in the U.K.?

Gestator is such a horrible, cold term. Like a woman is just a Petri dish on legs, on board the Nostromo with Ripley.

It makes a huge difference how the legislation is worded, doomRaider.

Legislators adopt standards from other jurisdictions, and elements of legal philosophy too, in both civil and criminal law. The common law operates in Ireland, the UK, the US on a state level apart from Louisiana, Canada apart from Quebec, NZ, Australia, Pakistan, India apart from Goa, and many other places that used to be a part of the British Empire. Concepts developed in one jurisdiction (including definitions of terms) are quite often used in others.

I don't follow your argument. It seems to have nothing in support of your assertion.

Of course the wording matters. It matters enormously which is why I assume some people are confused when they don't like legislation because the terms are "cold".

However, whether 'mother' or 'pregnant person' or 'gestator' is used, it wouldn't and I can see how it benefits someone born a woman, now legally recognised as a man but with ovaries etc. If the law uses wording that excuses him / her then it can cause problems.

The OP proudly identifies as a "bit of a TERF at the best of times"; a term which is apparently offensive and is also confused when they say "Savita Halappanavar wasn’t a pregnant person. Michelle Harte wasn’t a pregnant person. Sheila Hodges wasn’t a pregnant person."

They absolutely were pregnant people. The OP clearly wants a bit of a bunfight here but intelligent GFs usually do better.

So, can you tell me why 'pregnant person' instead of 'mother' makes a difference to the law?

Man is the word in English for adult human male.
Women can identify as men but they can never be men because they are female.
Obviously they will need to go back to using the term female when writing abortion laws to accommodate women who identify as men.

The whole trans activists 'degendering' agenda is perverse and disingenuous and worrying (and insulting)

They want trans people to have the right to choose their own identity pronouns and descriptors, but want to deny that same right to women who want to be known and described as women and mothers, as women have been called for generations.

Their identity words are dominating and overriding everyone else's - that is not democratic or liberal.

As Alaska says, being inclusive is saying women, transmen, and non-binary not excluding the word mother FFS.

We should use the word female (as well as women and mother) in legislation, to refer to biology. Surely female still has its correct scientific meaning?

I mean when a transwoman wants to be known as a woman, according to TRAs we have to allow it, write it into the dictionary and law and common usage etc, but when a biologically female woman wants to be known commonly and in legislation as a woman/ mother then that is not allowed?!

Really?! And people have no problem with this hypocrisy? It is frightening.

Ask transpeople what difference it makes to them to alter gender pronouns and words?

If their identity-words and feelings are relevant and important enough to specify, then why won't you extent that same right to women who want to be known as women/mothers?

And Doom, if you aren't interested in laws making people feel better, then you should support using the language women/mothers, transmen and non-binary, yes?

By your argument that cannot be offensive, and anyway if it was it shouldn't matter - and by extension, we can just carry on using the words women/mothers because it doesn't matter if we upset anyone.

Glad we've got that sorted then.

Ah, so it's about 'feelz'. You think yours are more important than theirs. At least you aren't pretending that it makes a difference legally.

However, the law isn't about feelings and surely pregnant people is more encompassing while doing no harm to anyone. A utilitarian approach makes sense here.

Why is everything about "rights"? You don't have a right to be called anything. I'm with Jordan Peterson; there's a difference between being nice to someone and calling them by their preferred name / pronoun and having it dictated to me what I can and call someone. The law is designed, not to be wishy-washy but to deliver a

Will you really be offended, upset etc if the law says pregnant person instead of mother? If so, I suggest you 'person up'.

"Glad we've got that sorted then."

Your post made no sense. Great use of random punctuation though.

unplugme
Excellent post. I totally agree.

I’m not Irish. However, I totally agree the law should state pregnant women as that is how the vast majority of natal females wish to be identified. Of course all biologically female people must also be included in the legislation. However using the descriptive “pregnant people” is not desirable and denigrates natal women.

If you have ever put together any kind of standard, law or regulation, you will see that the wording is very important, because people borrow the wording from previous laws and rules and regulations when they are formulating a new one. So the same shitty mistake will get repeated again and again and again and be built upon. So yes, it is bloody important that they don't put in something that is frankly bullshit. Law is tangential, and this is a tangent we really want to avoid establishing. I am sick of the conflation of sex and gender. It really is a massive insult.

But actually Doom you are the one trying to dicate to me and other women that we can no longer be described in legislation as women/mothers, because you think that transpeople's feelz are being offended and the the fact that you support change suggests you feel their feelz are more imortant than ours.

There is some very weird reversing of arguments here (gaslighting) about who is trying to dictate language and pronouns that just doesn't add up. But we see it. It is bizarre and pointless to try it on.

How ridiculous

"denigrates"

Really? I don't think that's the word you were looking for.

"that is how the vast majority of natal females wish to be identified. "

I love a good opinion written as though it's a fact as much as the next woman but it hardly helps the discussion.

Why is pregnant people undesirable?

Ah, so it's about 'feelz'. You think yours are more important than theirs.

Well, erm, seeing as there are more women than transwomen in Ireland, I’d say yes, they were...and the fact that transwomen can’t get pregnant and therefore totally unnecessary and intrusive to bulldoze in on this.

Oh FFS. I wish these people would just fuck off with their nonsense.

The amount of misery and fear and shame Irish women had to deal with for decades because we inhabited biologically female bodies that were seen as inherently sinful by the Catholic Church... it damaged so many lives and even ended some prematurely. And now, at the point of victory, on the cusp of finally being accepted as human beings rather than baby incubators, we have to listen to this bullshit.

Ugh. It's sickening. I'm sure the right-on, holier-than-thou types will lap it up though and hasten to accommodate anything the perpetually offended can think of into the new legislation.

Why is women/mothers, transmen and non-binary undesirable?

Law and legal wording should be the opposite of all encompassing. Its sucess relies on strict defintions and detail.