To think 'household income' is extremely unfair when assessing student finance.

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Thought this when eldest DD first went to Uni however just accepted that this was how it is. Now Dss2 who lives with us has been at Uni since September - has bought a friend Home for the long weekend and talking to him has made me realise just how terrible this system is and how it makes some kids especially from hard Home lives, struggle even more. It is a system designed to make the poor even poorer.

Dss2's friend 'Tom', lived with his mum since he was 2. Dad not in his life. Never paid maintenance doesn't even know where he lives or if he's even alive. When he was 15 his mum met a new man. For whatever reason Tom doesn't like his mums bf. Nevertheless, he moved in when Tom was 16. He says it didn't really bother him as by then he was living his own life , good social life etc, so to be fair he just doesn't really 'know' this man. Tom gets to 18 and gets a place at Uni. Applies for student finance. The application wants 'household income'. Mums boyfriend refuses. Says his finances are none of anyone's business. Sf write to him three times requesting the information. He refuses saying he doesn't even know the boy properly. Has 3 kids of his own he is paying CM for and wants nothing to do with Toms student loan.
Even if it was provided, because he is a high rate tax payer Tom would get the minimum loan.
Because his mums bf didn't supply the info. Tom gets minimum loan and a letter telling his 'parents' (!) how much they must contribute to his finance.

Mother was a TA on tax credits before meeting partner. Now she just has her income. No tc. Boyfriend is tight with money and expects mum to contribute half bills leaving her very little for the month and nothing for son at Uni. Boyfriend will not pay Tom anything. He is working two jobs in order to pay rent. His Uni work is suffering and he is thinking of chucking it in as so stressful. He has had some help from student welfare, but it's still very tough.

AIBU to think that either children are Adults at 18 and should ALL be entitled to a full loan and not have it based on the earnings of your mothers boyfriend ??
As Adults their entitlements should be judged on their own finances, no one else's. Regardless of their resident parents household income ? The loan is repaid anyway so where is the loss ?

Conversely DDs best friend has a maximum loan as her mum lives on spousal maintenance. However non resident dad is very wealthy and sends her £500a month. She doesn't need a job as very well off.

I think Tom's mother is very much at fault. The system may suck, but it is the system. Why couldn't she have waited for two more years to move in with this man?

Completely agree summercat. We have 3 children and had several years of overlap with at least 2 at uni. All our children had to work quite a significant number of hours in jobs while also studying. Friends of theirs from ‘poorer’ families got the full maintenance loan plus in many cases the extras you describe- one off sums of money for books, travel etc. It was tough for my kids seeing some of their ‘poorer’ friends not needing to go out and do another job on top of studying. And this was with us topping them up I hasten to add, as much as we could, but when you’re paying several hundred each to your adult kids per month and it’s still not covering their rent never mind food, it’s very tough

@Momo27 - I would have been classed as one of those "better off" households prior to x buggering off due to his own dissatisfaction!

My kids "should" currently be focusing fully on a levels without the worry of whether they are still going to be in the former family home ir living with a father who doesn't really want them!

They "should" be able to look forward to going to uni if this is what they want knowing they will be supported by parents who worked for this, and intended this for them.

Instead I'm having to look into this now to make sure I do not do anything that jeopardises their best chances due to unfamiliarity of a system that I never thought I would be part of .

I'm sat on my arse due to severe mental health issues as a result of acrimonious divorce and a female judge who dismissed my circumstances just because she has never been unlucky enough to suffer. I should be better by now and able to resume a professional career at age 55 having not worked for 20 years on a salary in excess of £25k - or so my settlement was based on.

The Ow's kids no doubt do not have these financial worries because my X is now supplementing their lifestyle instead of his own kids although he would claim on his death bed his kids were his priority!

They are playing a system to their advantage - just like the government - it is those who try and do the right thing that get abused - not the poor and when does Toms mum get to put her own needs first @SodTheGreenfly?

Someone I know is a single parent but works - her dd had so much help - also from Dad ( who lives alone so could help her) and grand mum. she was grateful etc etc but she was shocked when I told her what my ds got and how much we had to help.
Not jealous at all - it is what it is- but it does seem unfair and not well thought out.
We’re not even middle class.
Any government systems for anything is always complex and some people can play the system sometimes and others lose out.

The80s I agree that any govt system is complex. But systems which seem to facilitate biological parents not being responsible for their children when they are children (ie under 18) is wrong. And systems which disincentivise parents (or step parents) to earn higher incomes once those children are adults going into higher education, is wrong.

There have be a better and simpler models

You know I fully get that old saying that life is not fair but here we are already setting up the next generation where some will come out feeling disgruntled - middle class kids?.. and the poor have had it easy??.. is this the balance redressing itself - or a system keeping people comparing themselves to others and feeling hard done by and therefore divisive ...

Liverbird77 I think you are focussing on the wrong thing. Why the hell shouldn't 'Toms mum' have a relationship with whom the hell she likes especially now her son is an ADULT without that ADULT being penalised for it. ??
Child benefit stops at 18 . Child maintenance stops at 18. So why is a man that the Adult child of the woman, whom the student barely knows and who until this point has NOT been financially liable for - now be expected to contribute to his ADULT education for three/four years. ? There is no particular difficulties between Tom and his mums partner - its as much down to him being a teenager with a social life and no interest in wanting to hangout with his mum and boyfriend- as anything else.

In fact by the sounds of it mum has already martyred herself telling Tom that she wouldn't look for a partner until he was older and has not had a relationship all the way through Toms childhood (as far as he knows) and accepts that she is happy. There is probably a bit of jealousy there too. Mum and son together for 14 yrs (after first 2 with grandparents) then partner arrives on the scene. I can't believe anyone would suggest this mother should deny herself a relationship because of this ridiculous system.

Summercat. I agree, I was wrong in the belief that it affects poorer families. Depending on the configuration of family/step family and new partners etc it probably disproportionately affects the middle income earners - although has the propensity to affect ALL students.

GreenBeret I think for once - your very difficult situation may benefit you ! If you remain single your children will be entitled to the max based on your household income. That's where it's wrong. Their wealthy dad has to pay nothing but if you meet a man within the two yr period of them going to Uni, HIS income will decide the level of award and be expected to top up if below the maximum.

Font I think you should start a petition. Whilst I don't want to be inflammatory as I think it's great that everyone who lives here is given the opportunity to get loans and have an education, last year the SLC apparently admitted that 78k students had gone abroad/returned home owing money and they weren't chasing it up. That's something like a billion pounds owing. No wonder the interest rates go up!!! The system definitely needs reforming.

It's really unfair. It doesn't take into account people's individual circumstances at all.

Okki I have !!!

Just waiting for the 5 supporters emails to come back - (3 so far) and it will be published.

Does anyone know, can I post it on here ?

Summercat I don't know where you got your information from about poor families getting loads thrown at them. I'm a single Mum at uni, can't work on top of my uni hours (40hrs placement plus study) can't afford to continue and can't afford to drop out. Until my bank reads zero I'm not allowed any help from uni and even then it'd only be £300 loan. I manage my money well considering and divide my money so I get monthly amounts. To uni I've got 3k in the bank, to me I struggle to put fuel in my car and daren't use any of the 3k because it'll make next month even worse.

Systems which are flawed and blatantly unfair will inevitably foster divisive feelings.
If all higher ed students had the chance to borrow full maintenance loan, then they’d all be on a level playing field. Once they start to earn above the threshold, they start to pay back. It’s not rocket science

My dh has filled the forms in and due to his income we (she) aren't getting a great deal in terms of the maintenance loan.
Her father who hasn't even paid enough to cover her travel costs to school for the last umpteen years doesn't have to contribute a penny.

It's wrong, dh and I have been married seven years, dd is nearly 19. He is happy to help but it's not really fair at all.

And I don't agree with the system, but it isn't a loan in the traditional sense. Now more than ever most students won't pay back their loan. I went when fees were £3000 a year and I've only just started to pay back more than the interest at £24k wage on £30k loan and I'm 30. Mind you when I went part of my loan was a grant due to my parents low income. It's more like a graduate tax, which actually makes it worse because it means the poorer you are at start the longer the tax lasts if it ever ends at all.

greenberet it's in Bristol. Those halls are one of the cheapest in the city too! I don't know if they're owned/run by the universities even.

When I went there were no fees but my minimum grant was £85 per annum. I think my hall fees were about £200 per term. The top rate of tax was 60% which I paid from about 1985-1996. I pay much less tax now relatively on a similar annual income.

DS and DD could have loans for £27k plus about £3.5k pa towards maintenance (the minimum). DS's rent was about £6-7k pa. We calculated that if he earnt £80-£100k he would repay £110k. There is a huge sliding scale re repayment and I personally would like to see uni educations put to good use in life. DS has a place on a Masters from September. No loan or maintenance for that. He has worked this year to save his spends and expenses. We will have to pay the annual fee.

We started saving for our children's education when they were born.

Also there is now the Apprenticeship scheme that goes all the way to degree level and may be a really excellent alternative for children from poorer backgrounds. All children in fact, although I agree more needs to be done for the top 2/3% who may not otherwise be able to attend the best institutions, particularly for nursing, teaching, medicine and stem. However that should go hand in hand with a commitment to work in the UK public sector for 10-15 years or to pay back the cost of it.

For those saying their children are adults at 18, do you really think they are fully mature? Mine are 19 and 23. I'd say my 23 year old is just reaching full emotional and intellectual maturity. As a lad away from home 19 (after a gap year overseas doing hard physical work) he was still pretty unsure of himself during his first and second years at uni

Re the op, if yr children go to live with their father then surely it will be his household income that matters and him paying the maintenance? Your story is very sad but it really brings home why women should carry on working. Unfortunately I know many women in your situation.

Yanbu...and there's nothing taken into account if you have more than 1 dc at Uni at same time
I have a dd and Ds at Uni (2nd year and final year) and come September I'll have to pay nearly £850 month for their accommodation as their 'loan' wont cover this as we earn 'too much'
I've worked hard all my life and never claimed any benefits yet seem to have ended up worse than if I'd claimed!
I'm basically working to pay for them being at uni!

For those saying their children are adults at 18, do you really think they are fully mature? Mine are 19 and 23. I'd say my 23 year old is just reaching full emotional and intellectual maturity. As a lad away from home 19 (after a gap year overseas doing hard physical work) he was still pretty unsure of himself during his first and second years at uni

That is irrelevant, the law says at 18 you are an adult and an independent person but of course when it suits them, the 18 to 23 yo suddenly becomes a little dependant.child.

There is in fact a lone for master level now but its a basic one if 10k and has slightly different terms if paying back.

YANBU

YANBU

And I say that as someone who benefits from the system.

DD is in Y2 and DS will start uni in September. Both will receive full maintenance loans because I am a single parent on around £40k.

Their father is remarried and he and his wife earn around £100k. Their income is not taken into consideration at all because DD and DS have never lived with them.

Their father does however provide DD with a decent monthly allowance, pays for phone etc and will do the same for DS.

It would be fair if ALL university students could claim up to full maintenance loan - it's not a grant, it is a loan. I cannot understand for the life of me why parents and stepparents income is being taken into account.

Totally agree OP. When DS1 started uni they asked for household income. My husband is a higher rate tax payer so DS got minimum loan, even though we can't afford to support him as they don't take into consideration outgoings that family might have. It's stupid. The income should be based on the two actual bio parents whether they're together or not.

stopyourhavering so you don't think you should work to provide for your children. You expect the state to pay? Uni is optional not mandatory and I am assuming your dc have already had a free state education.

If dc are not in the cohort of Russell Group there are alternatives. Far too many dc who aren't uni material are now at uni and many emplpyers need to stop demanding a degree for what used to be GCSE entry level jobs at 16 or 18.

NotonyourNelly We're Bristol too. My boy is in an awful rowdy block with a tiny room and bathroom and it's over £6000 pounds.
Some folks on here are a bit confused about how this works I think. Parental income is used to calculate the amount of loan. This is unfair as the loan is to be paid back by the individual student ultimately (and why shouldn't they determine how much they need?)
In providing the financial information the parent is under no obligation whatsoever to top up or take financial responsibility for the student.
Tom's mother's partner could have provided the information and helped Tom out. He didn't because he's an arse.

Totally agree, whole system is illogical and unfair. I don't live with my partner of 8 years due to various reasons that we're happy with at the moment but I wouldn't like to think I'll live alone for ever! Am starting uni as a mature student this September and as a lone mum with a young daughter I get the full amount of maintenance loan. But should my partner and I decide to change our living arrangements and move in together I would have to wait until graduating in 2021 as his salary would affect everything. He has 3 kids who he's paid to get through uni and no way would I ever want or expect him to support me. Or my daughter if she goes to uni. This household income thing is just wrong. He's not my husband, my daughter's dad or even her step-dad but it's looking like because of this student finance ruling we will continue living apart for the foreseeable.... I also remember a similar situation years ago when I took a further education course after A levels. I was entitled to a small grant but because my dad's fairly average salary was taken into account my parents had to contribute some of this. My mum refused saying as I lived at home I didn't need any more money, even tho there was a very official letter stating this was non negotiable. So the tiny amount I did get from the grant went on transport and lunches and that was that! I have a good relationship with my parents but have never forgotten this especially as my normally SAHM went out and got a job for 3 years to pay for my younger brother to go to Uni!