To think 'household income' is extremely unfair when assessing student finance.

[fontofnoknowledge]

Thought this when eldest DD first went to Uni however just accepted that this was how it is. Now Dss2 who lives with us has been at Uni since September - has bought a friend Home for the long weekend and talking to him has made me realise just how terrible this system is and how it makes some kids especially from hard Home lives, struggle even more. It is a system designed to make the poor even poorer.

Dss2's friend 'Tom', lived with his mum since he was 2. Dad not in his life. Never paid maintenance doesn't even know where he lives or if he's even alive. When he was 15 his mum met a new man. For whatever reason Tom doesn't like his mums bf. Nevertheless, he moved in when Tom was 16. He says it didn't really bother him as by then he was living his own life , good social life etc, so to be fair he just doesn't really 'know' this man. Tom gets to 18 and gets a place at Uni. Applies for student finance. The application wants 'household income'. Mums boyfriend refuses. Says his finances are none of anyone's business. Sf write to him three times requesting the information. He refuses saying he doesn't even know the boy properly. Has 3 kids of his own he is paying CM for and wants nothing to do with Toms student loan.
Even if it was provided, because he is a high rate tax payer Tom would get the minimum loan.
Because his mums bf didn't supply the info. Tom gets minimum loan and a letter telling his 'parents' (!) how much they must contribute to his finance.

Mother was a TA on tax credits before meeting partner. Now she just has her income. No tc. Boyfriend is tight with money and expects mum to contribute half bills leaving her very little for the month and nothing for son at Uni. Boyfriend will not pay Tom anything. He is working two jobs in order to pay rent. His Uni work is suffering and he is thinking of chucking it in as so stressful. He has had some help from student welfare, but it's still very tough.

AIBU to think that either children are Adults at 18 and should ALL be entitled to a full loan and not have it based on the earnings of your mothers boyfriend ??
As Adults their entitlements should be judged on their own finances, no one else's. Regardless of their resident parents household income ? The loan is repaid anyway so where is the loss ?

Conversely DDs best friend has a maximum loan as her mum lives on spousal maintenance. However non resident dad is very wealthy and sends her £500a month. She doesn't need a job as very well off.

Ridiculous system. They do it here for nursery fees. Household income. Not parental income. That’s (imo) what it should be.

A friend split with her baby’s dad and her new partner lives with her 3/4 of 7 days. His income is taken into account for her Nursery fees and because of this she’s expected to pay in full. If she’d been with her ex still or a single parent she would have been given free hours.

We don’t qualify for any free hours because dh and I earn over the threshold. But if we lived separately we would.

I had to move in with my grandparents to afford to go to uni, my dad wasn’t willing to fill in the forms and earned too much anyway, but wasn’t willing to contribute. It’s an awful system.

For once - I would actually like the DailyFail to pick up a thread . This is a scandalous inequality between students based on an arbitrary situation their household income was in two years before !

I am sure a flat rate loan to adults would also be a huge cost saving on all the admin associated with 'requesting information ' from various reluctant parents. Let alone the policing of fraud within the system. Because where theres means testing there is always people willing to manipulate it.

I just can't see why they go through all these administration hoops for a loan , a grant yes I understand- public purse and all , but this is repayable. !

Our situation is a case in point within one family. We have 7 children. My 3 who live with us. DH eldest 2 who live with us and his youngest 2 who live with his ex-w.
My eldest and his eldest assessed on OUR income. Minimum award as we earn 90k between us. Which is a lot of money. BUT it doesn't take into account that Out of that we pay our mortgage, have 5 resident children, and DH pays maintenance for children at ex's house based on his income. (A third higher than mine and higher rate tax). On top of that he pays the mortgage on his ex marital home until the youngest are 18.
Ex wife lives in the former marital home and has a LTR with a man who is a higher earner than both of us - but lives across the road because living together would mean ex would have to sell/buy my DH out. DH's ex is had to pay us £25 a week for the eldest two based on her income of 16 hrs a week and tax credits.. (now their eldest is 18 it's decreased to £14).

When DH's youngest two go to Uni they will qualify for a full loan. The irony being that without a mortgage and maintenance to pay DH will have plenty spare to help the youngest two at Uni although 'according to the rules' is not liable in any way. !

Meanwhile my Three and his two qualify for minimum AND we are expected to pay top ups.
If it were based on Parental income my children would get not maximum but an ok amount (their dad is poorly and works part time) and DH would pay for his based on his income which whilst a good wage would not mean a minimum.

So, the Government expects the parent to support their adult children, even though they are adults! but stops child benefit once they start Uni.....

Its a pity all parents could nt just boycott this con of a system and force the Government to change it.

The system is clear, it treats children vs adults, resident parents vs biological parents, all on the basis of getting as much tax as possible/reducing how much benefits it can get.

Fairness, or even common sense doesn't come into it at all.

I think I'm going to start a petition. This has always niggled me but now I have heard everyone else's stories - something really needs to be done. !

I agree that the way in which household income is assessed for student loans is blatantly unfair. However, I doubt whether the current system will change because the alternative would require the government to give all students the same amount regardless of family background. This in turn would have a major impact on public expenditure, and people would argue that state funding should not be used to fund students from families who are able and willing to pay.

We were lucky that we could help out ds2 - if other child wanted to go as well ( he didn’t) we wouldn’t have been able to do it - maybe had to get a loan ourselves. Dh earned just over the limit and I’m only very part time so ds2 only recieved the bare minimum loans. Still graduating with debts as well of course. So hard for the youngsters and hard pushed parents.

I am lucky to live in Scotland.

My DD starts a degree in September.
All University fees are paid by the government and she gets a bursary which she does not have to pay back.

I've got twins. No way could I afford to support them both at uni at the same time. My housing costs won't reduce if they move out and the minimal reduction in food costs won't cover their uni costs. Bloody crazy system. My DH is their SD and doesn't contribute to their costs now, why should he?

Surely the student has to name names, so the student should not name the name of the mum's new boyfriend?

Agree it is unfair. In fairness in the partner's situation I wouldn't want to fund the child's education either, especially if I already had children of my own.

I'm not sure why parents should be expected to fund their children's education once they're over 18. I would only fund my kids if they got into a good uni as I think it's a waste of money otherwise.

But the issue is that the majority of people never pay back their student loans as it is, so governments are obviously trying to limit how much is lent in the first place. Three quarters of students will never pay off their student loans, according to the FT, and the debts from loans is projected to be £1trillion by 2035. 25% eu students don't pay back their loans.

The system doesn't work and needs to change.

actually i was worried whether household income took my ds working wage into account.
it didnt seem to

it is not the poor or rich that are affected, most affected are the middle incomes.

Conversely DDs best friend has a maximum loan as her mum lives on spousal maintenance. However non resident dad is very wealthy and sends her £500a month. She doesn't need a job as very well off.

My DCs know a few students that fall into this camp.

I suspect there is a lot of fraud that goes on.

This is why my BIL waited a few years and went to Uni as an independent adult student (I don't know the right terms) - it also meant he had a few years to mature, and earn some money as a fallback, so it actually worked out quite well for him. (for various reasons, his family couldn't actually support him, although on paper it looked like they could)

Of course he had somewhere to live through it all, if you're from a less supportive family, that wouldn't be the case

We are one of the middle income families who are being squeezed dry by this system. DD1 is just finishing her last year in an expensive city. We've supported her all the way through because her loan barely covered the cost of her rent. She's worked every weekend and every holiday to supplement her income. DD2 is about to start a course in the same city and will live in the same halls as DD1 lives in during her first year. In those three years, the rent at the student halls has increased by over £1000 pa. meaning DD2's rent alone will cost MORE than her loan. The rent is now over £6k. Someone somewhere is making a packet out of this system.

We are really going to struggle, just as we should be planning for our retirement (DH and I are in our 50s). We barely have any money to spare for anything else. At least our mortgage is almost paid off, so we are luckier than many families.

Children are the responsibility of parents who should plan them and for them.

I feel sorry for Tom because his mother has put her bloke first without prioritising her child's needs.

The maintenance part of the old system was also based on parental income.

I wish ds2 had gone for a course at a London uni and commuted and lived at home ( would have been doable, just fares to find) but you can’t tell them anything at 18! My friends son did and he has money to go travelling now.

I am interested in this thread for two reasons

I have twins too one def going to uni other not yet sure - recent acrimonious divorce with c&&t of an x who has tried to screw me in every way possible financially & emotionally. Currently waiting on court tribunal for CMS - he's already not paying what they told him - even though it was ordered in appeal - and a supervisor has agreed what he claims he can afford

My concerns are - how do I find out what financial requirements are taken into account when assessing for loan - I am on benefits which will stop at 18 - Ctc Child benefit and minimum maintenance - X and Ow both work for x business which enables him to have mortgage and a rental property despite going down the pan during divorce and reason why he cannot pay maintenance

CMS are a f&&king useless administrative service yet here it seems the student loan govt office can request any bit of financial info they like and within a limited timescale - if one can why can't the other - smacks of double standards so often symptom of abuse

There is no way I will be able to support my kids through uni - I'm currently having to consider moving away and sending them to live with the x full time as I cannot support myself on the divorce settlement I got due to heavy manipulation by x and being ripped off by solicitors.

I'm trying to rectify through the legal ombudsman but coming to the conclusion that "protecting the public" is just a sham and they really side with the legal professionals raking in the money & paying large amounts of tax!

@fontofnoknowledge - I'll support you in any way I can - I've tried petitions for CMS - I've emailed my MP - how do we get this picked up by daily mail - is the increase in student mental health issues got anything to do with the financial strain they are under and then there must be the niggling emotional worm in the back of their heads saying my parents are not supporting me in this!

The govt don't lose out - they get their loans repaid - assuming the kids get out the other side and what happens to the loans if they are not repaid - do they get written off - CSA wrote off 2.5 million - of unclaimed maintenance as it was too costly to pursue but it wasn't money that was owed to them - it was money owed to the mothers!

Did this figure come off their balance sheet because if it did how can they justify it?

The people working in these places what are they doing? Do they still get good government pensions? Because in my case they are doing bugger all and From what I gather on MN it is mostly the parents doing the chasing, providing information to prove false income etc and the CMS even having the powers seem to be sitting on their arses!

fontofnoknowledge - don't be niggled - get angry - we are all being ripped off by systems supposedly there to help us !

Good to see a thread where pretty much everyone is in agreement. And also going even further than the OPs specific circumstance and recognising that the system is unfair not just where step parents are concerned but also biological parents.

SeriousSass - my children also knew quite a number of students in that situation. Maximum maintenance loan, but in reality they were better off than many students from theoretically ‘better off’ households

Also, why should a couple where both parents work be penalised by being expected to top up the loan for their adult child, when if one of them sat on their arse all day, the adult child would get loaned more money?

The system is utterly flawed.
At the end of the day it’s a loan, to be repaid once the young person earns above the threshold. Put everyone on a level playing field by loaning the same to all students. It’s totally unfair that students on minimum loan are often having to work for many hours while studying for their degree, because in reality their parents can’t subsidise them, while ‘poorer’ students don’t necessarily have to work through uni because their maintenance actually covers all or most of their costs

Crazy.

@Notonyournelly - which city is this if you don't mind sharing - is this in all the fancy new student accommodation that has been built - I've seen it in reading, Oxford and Swansea - is this how they recoup the money that has gone into upgrading facilities?

I'm new to all this but already I can see that it seems like an administrative nightmare and a huge financial burden - and is the price of accommodation linked to the reputation of the uni or is this far too cynical of me

Yes it IS a flawed system.

Yes it IS a flawed system.

@fontofnoknowledge

and that is one of the reasons poorer kids are put off from even attempting to go to Uni.

I'm not sure I entirely agree that it's just 'poorer' people, as 'poorer' people get shit loads thrown at them (as I said earlier.) It's the kids from middle-income families who struggle.

However, I can understand that if there are deadbeat dads who have buggared off, and/or are refusing to give income details, that this will cause many problems, and I do appreciate your issues.

As many posters have said, it's a daft system, to base an ADULT's student loan on what their parent's earn. Just daft. It's so unfair on the parents. I have a friend right now whose daughter wanted to go to uni last year, and my friend and her husband were on around £55-60K between them, and that took their daughter over any threshold for any help. Her daughter said she needs them to pay her rent (£500 a month.)

However, they have a big mortgage, 2 cars, lots of outgoings and debt, and 2 other kids, and my friend flat out said, 'sorry but we simply cannot pay that.' Long story short, her daughter didn't go to uni, as she was simply too worried about not surviving financially. (I mean she could have got a part time job, but she was still worried she would struggle with no help from anyone or anywhere...)

As I said on page 2 though, I also know someone whose child had everything thrown at them - grants, bursaries, freebies at uni (like bus travel and some books) because her parents were such very low earners (less than £16K per years total income.)

So as I said, it's not always students from 'poorer' families who suffer.