To believe kids are equal to adults

[DragonMummy1418]

They deserve the same treatment.
Their feelings are just as important as adults.

My parents told me that our home was a dictatorship not a democracy growing up and made me feel that my thoughts and opinions were not important or valid.
If it's something they can have a say in safely then I let my dc help make choices.

I went food shopping with my mother (who I am LC with) and 3.5 yr old DS today and she was appalled that I was letting my DS have a say in what we bought.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not letting him fill the trolly with ice cream and sweets but when it comes to a choice of which meat or which vegetables etc then I'm happy to let him pick what he likes and I know he will eat.

My mother was horrified when I said that I value DS's feelings and thoughts on the same level as my DH or hers (probably more than hers, lol).

I genuinely prefer the company of my child to a lot of adults I know.

What I'm really seeing is lots of people who are basically agreeing with each other but who use the word 'equal' to mean different things.
(A) For some, it seems to mean simply that kids get an input, although you may have to over-rule it.
(B) For others, it seems to mean that kids opinions have exactly the same weight in every decision.

People who are using 'equal' to mean (A) are saying yes, kids are equal. People who are using 'equal' to mean (B) are saying no, kids aren't equal.
But actually, most people are saying kids can have input into some of the things that affect them. Everyone seems to have the same opinion. It's really an argument as to whether you define that as 'equal' or not.

No, I don't think they're equal but I do think it's important that they're shown appropriate levels of respect and their opinions are sought, again when appropriate.

So the OP's example of her DS getting to make some small choices at the supermarket, within sensible boundaries (things she knows he will eat) is a good one.

I agree with TomR - where appropriate. Agree ops example is fine.

As a pp said children cannot make informed decisions. Their feelings do matter but a 3 year olds feelings are not always rational. As for buying food that they like, well most of us know what our kids like don't we? And what if what they want is at variance with what you want? I think including them in decisions is a good idea as long as they understand that the parent has the final say, after all you are the one who has to pay for and cook the food, and you are responsible for their nutritional needs.

I completely agree.

Where I see this completely disregarded the most is in situations where children aren't given the option to say no to touch and affection. "Give aunty a kiss" "I don't want to" "Don't be rude, give aunty a kiss now!"

And the fucking catsbumfaces when you, as their parent, tell them that it's absolutely fine for them to say no when they don't want to engage in physical contact with someone else.

They're people, not property.

Tom- I agree, but I wouldn't call it equal.
I think that's where the disagreement is coming from.
Everyone seems to be saying that some level of choice is good. But to me, equality is equal say and weight being given. Therefore giving your child a choice of say, chicken curry or chilli isn't equal because you've already made the initial choices. Equal would be a totally open "What do you want to eat?" And seriously considering all choices, including Haribo and ice cream.
It s a difference of definition. I do the same as Op, but don't think of them as equal. Important, yes. Equal, no.

You haven’t treated your 3 yo as equal to you OP. You gave him a limited choice. I know parents who actually did treat their kids equally & used to walk most shopping trips with bags of sweets and chocolates as a result. Those kids all have issues now with food and / their health.

It is RIGHT for parent / child relationships to be a benevolent dictatorship, with some limited choices given when needed, otherwise what’s the point of having parents?

Feelings and happiness yes spot on equal although most parents prize their children’s happiness above their own.

However not equal control. I think to make secure resilient children they need to know mum and dad are in charge and in control to offer them protection, care and boundaries as good role models.

I don’t feel comfy when people say their kids are their best friends. My 6 kids are all grown up now and are very very close and supportive but they are not my best friends We am far more than that to them and them to us.

I agree gibing toddlers some choices is a really good thing but you do need to set strong boundaries over behaviour, bed time, food at a young age so they make sensible choices as teenagers.

You sound s grret mum op

It's not the same, but it is equal.

DD has the same haircut as I had as a child. I was forced to have shorter hair, that I hated and resented and my DM told me I had to. DD chose to because she doesn't like getting her hair brushed and was given the choice. Not the choice not to have her hair brushed. But the choice to have the pain or the haircut.

Same result, in terms of haircut. Very different experience for the child.

Definitely agree with you here. Giving them choices within a safe limit (like the choice of meat but not the choice of any junk food) is a great way of making them feel valued and helping them develop their own confidence too. I grew up with my whole childhood micromanaged and so much of it was not actually necessary and I turned into a very shy adult without the confidence to speak up (it took years to learn to do that). For instance my mother never let me grow my hair past my shoulders, and looking back on it I didn't know why on earth not! My son didn't want to cut his hair for about a year and I said sure, it's his hair, his decision! He eventually decided to have it cut. But obviously it's common sense where you let them have their freedom.

They are different, equal is the wrong word.

I have always considered my child but I am her parent and whilst she is a child it is my job to use my years of experience to help me to decide things that she cannot possibly have the maturity to know.

As she is getting older, I regard her as more of an 'equal'. I have 40 more years of life experience than she does but she has experience and knowledge of new fangled stuff that I don't.
In my opinion letting a child believe that they are 'equal' in terms of who makes all decisions is not the best idea, but letting them choose out of a range of things that you have 'approved' is fine, e.g. would you prefer apples, pears or oranges.

They're not equal though. Children have developing brains and experiences which means that they cannot make informed decisions like an adult. One only has to look at statutory rape and consent laws to see this.

I'm not saying kids are magically able to process and make decisions once they hit 17. Or that their feelings aren't valid. But putting kids on a completely equal footing as adults is a slippery slope.

My DS thoughts and feelings are important but he also needs to learn that a large part of life is doing what your told. He doesn't want to go to school he has too. He'd like to debate it for an hour every morning, I can't because I have work.

Kids are important but they are not equal. I make the rules because I'm an adult, and my son would live in his boxer shorts on the Xbox eating chocolate if I like him. Same I had a disagreement with him yesterday he wanted a certain thing, I wanted another. He had his choice the day before and I wasn't having chicken nuggets, beans and chips again.

Definitely, kids are equal.
People commenting don't seem to be able to get what you're saying! Distinguishing between letting a child make unhealthy and uninformed opinions and valuing their opinion and feelings is not difficult IMO. I think people purposely find it hard so they can live at the top of the dictatorship your parents described!

YABU

To decide against all evidence that children are equal to adults is to deny their childhood. Children have the right to special treatment because of their childhood. We don't demand adult behaviour from them, we don't expect them to get jobs and be arrested when they act violently and impulsively, and we accord them special treatment, such as legal protection, free education and discipline according to their needs

Of course chidren should be treated with courtesy and respect, but that doesn't make them equal. You gradually give them more choice and more complex decisions to make as they become more mature.
My own kids were allowed to choose between (say) a red t shirt or a blue t shirt when they were toddlers. They were not allowed to choose to leave the house naked! At 3 they were allowed to "advise" me on whether a car was coming or it was safe to cross the road - but I had the final say on when we crossed. They could choose which of the various green veg in the fridge they wanted with their dinner, but not allowed to refuse all greens in favour of sweets or stodge.
In public places, eg at church or in a restaurant, they were categorically not allowed to make a noise or annoy other adults.
If I had to refuse them a request, I would always try to give an age appropriate reason - I never resorted to "Because I say so". I was aiming to produce future adults who were able to make sensible choices, who felt that they were validated and respected, and whose self esteem was intact - particularly important for girls, in our patriarchal culture. And when I occasionally did have to tell them off, eg for hitting each other, I made it a point of honour that after they had apologised for their misdeed, I always apologised for shouting at them, so they didn't feel demeaned, and saw that apologies were something adults did too. My generation were routinely humiliated as kids by both parents and teachers, and I didn't want that for my own children. I think kids appreciate consistency - if they know that you love them, and your rules are explained and reasonable, you won't go far wrong.

Agree with other posters above. My children are as valuable and important in the world as me, but within our relationship (and other relationships eg with granny or schoolteacher) they are not and will never be treated as truly equal.

They lack capacity, knowledge and foresight to make good decisions for starters. They are my dependents - the clue is in the word!

However we have a close and loving relationship, so I make food they like / eat elements of. We chat about good things to do together. DD wanted tp visit a local attraction; we could afford it and had a free weekend so we did. Of course they can negotiate for more sweets, a later night or new clothes but sometimes it's a no. There is a delayed joy in saying no occasionally as it stops them expecting things, so they're delighted when they do get them, often unexpectedly.

Even as an adult my relationship with my mum isn't wholly equal: I talk to her about sex, would lean on her in a divorce and stroll into her house without knocking. It doesn't go both ways; she is still married to my dad so the first two would be deeply inappropriate and unfair, and she must respect this is my DH's home tpo and knock, whereas she lives in my old childhood home and has said it would be wrong for me to knock. Her love for me is unconditional, too - my love for her isn't.

I find that the people who prefer authoritarian parenting styles are usually the ones who throw a tantrum when they see a child sitting on a crowded bus. I don't have an awful lot of time them for them, tbh. I sympathise, as to be a parent who thinks the only opinions that matter are adult ones, they have probably been raised that way themselves and have experienced a whole childhood of being told that the thoughts, feelings, wishes and opinions of children mean nothing. But I don't have much respect for that as a parenting style or approach to adult/ child relationships.

I don’t think many parents parent like the ops parents did now though?

MrsT I vividly remember going to a friends house for tea around I suppose 1974 and her mum told her she was cutting her hair, my friend cried and the mum just basically lopped it off with a scissors. I found the whole thing deeply shocking and more so today as a mother. I am
So sorry that happened to you. It seemed so cruel to me and such an exertion of power. Hateful.

Rosesandflowers - people do get it and I think everyone is actually in agreement. We just don't all call it 'being equal'.
I do what the Op does. But I don't call it being equal. Nothing to do with wanting to stay at the top of the benign dictatorship.
Their feelings matter but they cannot have equal say in all the decisions because they do not have the understanding that I do. Therefore they are not equal. Important, massively. But not equal.
I think essentially the Op does what I do. She calls it being equal. I don't. Different word. Same outcome.

Equal in terms of consideration but not in terms of decision making.

You have to look after your children; they do not have to look after you. You can thus make decisions on their behalf. Giving age appropriate privileges and responsibilities is great; pretending a 6 year old’s opinion is equally valid to an adult’s informed by years of experience is silly.

I think if anything we tend to prioritise our DCs' feelings over our own - god knows the boring crap I've put up with to make my DC happy. But nonetheless my home is still a (benign) dictatorship and the parents make/enforce the rules. Equality is over-simplifying the hugely subtle and complex system of checks and balances within families. But I think as long as there's a general vibe of love and respect you can't go wrong.

I agree that their feelings deserve equal respect to an adults, they don't always get an equal say because they haven't developed the ability to plan ahead, consider other people's feelings, assess risk etc.

Likewise when it comes to seats on a train etc. I think a toddler has an equal right to sit down as an able bodied adult (actually more as they're more likely to fall over and hurt themselves) but since a toddler can happily sit on my lap and an adult can't I'll put them on my lap and leave an extra seat free.