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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Men wanting to be Women

823 replies

bert3400 · 16/05/2018 22:26

To think transgender women really have no idea what being a women is ? . Maybe it's time we had a 3rd Gender . Be interested in hearing what real women & transwomen feel ?

OP posts:
Dungeondragon15 · 21/05/2018 17:01

Ah you should easily be able to remember what threads those were then and find those "many posters"

I meant that I had only been on a couple of thread relating to transgender issue, not that I have only been on a couple of threads on mumsnet.

MIdgebabe · 21/05/2018 17:04

Please remember to report any truly aggressive posts. Rest assured that If they are aggressive they will be removed

It is worth remembering that men do tend to view assertive women as aggressive. Get actors to play identical roles and the interpretation of a statement is seen differently if it is delivered by a woman.

Something in the guardian last Friday on just this sort of question.

I recommend Harvard University unconscious bias web site. It helped me think about such issues.

Of course, you may find that whinging about aggressive posts gets little sympathy, because we have had a problem of people whinging to make it look like people here are bad, without being able to back up their complaint.

Dungeondragon15 · 21/05/2018 17:05

You accused me personally of being aggressive towards trans people in my comment, can you tell me how and where I have been aggressive?

I'm not accusing you personally of being aggressive.

Dungeondragon15 · 21/05/2018 17:07

It is worth remembering that men do tend to view assertive women as aggressive. Get actors to play identical roles and the interpretation of a statement is seen differently if it is delivered by a woman.

Are you suggesting that I have switched genders and am now a man. How ironic!

TwittleBee · 21/05/2018 17:08

I meant that I had only been on a couple of thread relating to transgender issue, not that I have only been on a couple of threads on mumsnet

Ah apologies, I misread your posts about aggressions then. Glad you haven't found any on MN.

And to reply to another one of your posts a moment ago... yes we realise at times it might seem like we are just debating amongst ourselves these issues, but we are sharing our thoughts, expressing our frustration and building our arguments. We often share information and can often change our views or see new things emerge.

Jaxhog · 21/05/2018 17:11

Since society has treated me like a woman (good and bad) and I have suffered/enjoyed the physical attributes of being a woman for all my life, I think I can call myself a woman. I don't think someone who hasn't experienced this can truly know what it is like to be a woman.

Ireneony · 21/05/2018 17:12

Dungeondragon15

Dungeondragon15

The issue is when they start saying they are actually female and need access to female spaces and ignoring/dismissing the reasons females require these spaces and protections in the first place.

I am sure that they have been using "female spaces" for a long time and it hasn't been an issue because you didn't know about it. I agree that self ID could be a big problem but if you want people to listen to your argument on that, you need to leave those who genuinely believe that they were born in the wrong body alone. The constant aggression towards people who are not doing you any harm is counterproductive.

^^this was your post from earlier, the comment you quoted was taken from one of my earlier posts. Where is the constant aggression?

grandplans · 21/05/2018 17:16

On the tiger....

When women point out transwomen (as a group) are a threat to women (as a group) we're saying it's in the same way as men are. I'm NOT saying transwomen are a particular threat, but that men are a known threat and no one has proved that transwomen stop committing crime like men when they become women...

But then, we're accused of calling all transwomen predators, or we're told everyone can be a threat, it's nonsense to be threatened by transwomen, or we get Paris Lees saying it's a fear we must get over, like phobia of escalators for example or we're told there's no evidence that transwomen are a threat to women.

But we know tigers are a threat to humans. We know not every tiger will attack us at every moment, many will leave humans alone. but even so, we know it's in the nature of some of them. Enough for us to not trust them at all, anywhere near us!

Men are thankfully not as dangerous as tigers! They do come near us! We just don't want them places we're vulnerable, if we don't know and trust them. We do know that, as a group, they contain some men who mean harm to women and girls. Enough of them that 1 in 5 UK women have sustained sexual violence since the sage of 16. The figure is much higher if you include sexual violence to women when underage.

Men are a threat.

To say transwomen aren't a threat is nonsense! Firstly, there's lots of evidence of transwomen committing sexual crimes. Secondly no one has proved they lose male pattern violence just because they think they're women.

We're not singling out transwomen. We're just saying, we can see this is a tiger. No amount of telling us they identify as a gazelle is going to put our minds at rest. We know it's a fucking tiger. We can see it with out own eyes, and you may have done mental gymnastics to decide it's a gazelle, but we'd rather not be attacked because of your belief system, thanks.

Dungeondragon15 · 21/05/2018 17:17

Ireneony I'm sorry if it appeared that I was stating that you personally were aggressive. I was talking about these threads on transgender issues in general. i.e. I think that the debate on self ID is very valid but it is being drowned out by all the antitransgender posts on this thread and others.

GladAllOver · 21/05/2018 17:17

"Constant aggression" = not agreeing that transwomen are women.

Dungeondragon15 · 21/05/2018 17:19

"Constant aggression" = not agreeing that transwomen are women.

And yet I haven't stated that transwomen are women.

TERFragetteCity · 21/05/2018 17:19

We know not every tiger will attack us at every moment,

Not my Nigel - my Nigel is a pussycat.

MIdgebabe · 21/05/2018 17:21

I have no idea who you are, this is an anonymous Internet forum. , I only guess that you are probably quite different from me ... especially when you start talking about your gender which is not something I understand beyond a sterotype

the point still stands that you should report anything aggressive. It can then be removed and the poster informed. People will only learn that others find their behaviour aggressive if it is patiently and specifically explained to them what is wrong.

AT the same time, You should think if you are reading something into peoples words that is actually a reflection of your own internal unconscious bias. These can occur for sexist reason, race and culture. A turn of phrase that reminds you of something a violent person once said for example. A phrase that is jokey in the uk and offensive in the us.

Because these side discussions can prevent otherwise interesting debate.

Dungeondragon15 · 21/05/2018 17:28

I have no idea who you are, this is an anonymous Internet forum. , I only guess that you are probably quite different from me

Yep, my guess is that I am very different from you...

... especially when you start talking about your gender which is not something I understand beyond a sterotype

What are you talking about?

Bowlofbabelfish · 21/05/2018 17:28

it is being drowned out by all the antitransgender posts on this thread and others.

Which ones? Which specific posts on this one are aggressive? Which are anti transgender?

I ask because I keep hearing this / that we are all aggressive harpies who hate... blah blah. But no one provides examples, which leads me to believe that it’s not actually agggression - it’s people disagreeing and challenging.

I can provide some example of other threads I’ve been on today where TRAs have been aggressive. ‘On the rag’ ‘witches’ ‘genetic women are inferior’ “So instead of debating with hormonal woman who are on the rag I am going to campaign against mums net so it hurts their pocket. You trolling witches did this“ “Let's hope your fears come true to every last one of you nasty skanks”

That’s aggressive.

Which things people have said on here are aggressive??

Pratchet · 21/05/2018 17:30

Laws are currently constructed around the word 'woman'. Transactivists are unable to change the laws: therefore they are trying to change the meaning of the word 'woman'.

Pratchet · 21/05/2018 17:33

It's not just one little change to the Gender Recognition Act, a bit of bureaucracy, a piece of paper. If they change the meaning of the word 'woman' they change the legislative power of every single piece of legislation involved in protecting and progressing women's rights. All those laws are changed by this thing they say is a mere administrative tweak.

No: they can't have 'woman'. It means adult female human, and that's it.

MIdgebabe · 21/05/2018 17:39

You talked about switching genders to be a man. Confusing statement. Man is a person born male and raised as such.

I understand gender sterotype. That's the things that some people say you should wear/act like /enjoy /do if you are a particular sex.

I also understand that some people, especially marketing groups, say gender is a collection of personality characteristics that can be used to classify how a person might act or respond. In that situation there can be as many genders as is needed for your particular classification problem.

iamawoman · 21/05/2018 17:41

Dragons we cannot leave the mantra 'born in the wrong body' alone because it is completely untrue and it is being promoted as fact to children and young people who would be better served by therapy and support which is based on what we do know...rather than promote a way of thinking which leads to lifelong hormones and surgery

Mamaryllis · 21/05/2018 17:42

I really don’t want an ‘unidentifiable perhaps something that we haven’t worked out what it is yet and we aren’t even sure it exists but it might’ theory to be used to amend a biological reality in order to force women and young girls to share safe spaces with penises. Even if this unknown theory explains why some men want to be women, it won’t make any difference to their ability to impregnate, attack, or otherwise harm women and girls. Safe spaces are entirely based on the biological reality of being male bodied or female bodied.
Sure, it will be interesting if at some point in the future this mysterious other indicator is identified. But given that it clearly doesn’t affect male violence towards women, doesn’t affect ability to rape or impregnate, and doesn’t affect any other reason for sex segregated spaces, it’s irrelevant. Interesting. But not enough to base laws on.
Female people (biologically defined) need sex segregated spaces in some areas.
Biologically male people are the reason we need sex segregation. Putting the fox in the hen house and making it illegal for the hens to squawk is a really stupid idea.

Dungeondragon15 · 21/05/2018 17:48

Bowlofbabelfish There is really little point in telling you which posts I find aggressive and/or antitransgender as you will then argue that they are not so really the exercise will be a waste of time. We will not agree and it will just be a futile argument.

Dungeondragon15 · 21/05/2018 17:50

You talked about switching genders to be a man. Confusing statement. Man is a person born male and raised as such.

I was being sarcastic as you thought you were implying I was a man when you said "It is worth remembering that men do tend to view assertive women as aggressive. "

Noqonterfy · 21/05/2018 18:04

There is really little point in telling you which posts I find aggressive and/or antitransgender as you will then argue that they are not so really the exercise will be a waste of time. We will not agree and it will just be a futile argument.

You couldn't find any then. Thought so.

RatRolyPoly · 21/05/2018 18:07

No aggression? Tell me, do you see any ships when you hold that telescope up to your blind eye??

I literally don't even know what the point would be in linking threads. I mean I've evidenced the aggression on here plenty of times before, linking thread after thread where transwomen have been utterly mauled - several to leave MN for good - not to mention the fate of trans-inclusive feminists like myself, or indeed just your ordinary MN poster who strays onto a trans thread...

The thing is it's so common, and I've linked and linked over and over again, and not a day goes by when it is not evidenced in spades that if people still insist on denying any aggression at all... I can only call bullshit.

Because it is. Total bullshit.

If people here were saying, "emotions are running high, the tone of the debate sometimes stays into something less than helpful, when an issue is close to someone's heart..." yada yada I might think yeah, that's a fair interpretation. It's not my interpretation, but it would be fair.

But to say there is NO aggression; that, in my opinion, is not a view anyone who's been here longer than five minutes could legitimately hold. Not without a hefty dose of wilful blindness.

MiggeldyHiggins · 21/05/2018 18:11

Your goading is total bullshit. You push and you goad and you lie and then you shriek about how we are so aggressive and mean and nasty.
Frankly, we're all sick of it.