Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Men wanting to be Women

823 replies

bert3400 · 16/05/2018 22:26

To think transgender women really have no idea what being a women is ? . Maybe it's time we had a 3rd Gender . Be interested in hearing what real women & transwomen feel ?

OP posts:
drspouse · 21/05/2018 13:49

it isn't "personality", because why then would so many females throughout time have had a "female" personality?
Because they were socialised to do so. We learn a heck of a lot through socialisation.

there is something in us that urges us to interact with the stereotypes aimed at our sex (or of the other sex, if you're transexual).

I don't have an "urge" and I don't feel compelled to interact as a whole with the stereotypes associated with my sex. I'm lucky in that I know they are stereotypes and I can accept or reject many of them individually (though some are imposed on me e.g. if I'm not "nice enough" to colleagues I'm judged much more harshly than male colleagues).

Bowlofbabelfish · 21/05/2018 13:50

except that I know I'm a woman. I imagine you do too. That self-identification, that's about the only measurable thing I can see for gender identity actually.

But isn’t that contradictory? I know I’m a woman. But it’s not because of how I feel. I’ve never been a man so I don’t know how it feels to be a man or a woman. I just am.

I know I’m a woman because I can physically verify my experience. I’ve bourne children. I have a female body. I am genetically female. That’s what makes me knowbim a woman.

What I feel like? Well That’s pretty subjective. I don’t feel like the stereotypical image of woman that TRAs push. I don’t do pink. I dress however I want. I don’t wear makeup much. I’ve had short and long hair, I live in jeans, I work in a stereotypically male profession. If you lined up my day and my husband’s day it’s looking identical - except for anything influenced by our biology. Get up, wrestle child into clothing, take child to nursery, work, blah blah.

I don’t think I have a soul. I just am. I exist and am female. My female biology doesn’t really care about my opinions

grandplans · 21/05/2018 13:50

No-one is arguing what "woman" means when you're talking just about biology.

Yes, they are. That's the whole point (well, one of them!)

Transactivist ideology says it's transphobic to talk about "biological women".

They insist that whether you're a woman on a man depends on who you identify. That if you have a penis but you ID as a woman, then you are a woman with a dick. (A "lady dick").

The trans activist line is that your sex is assigned by a doctor at birth, but it's only something you can actually know when the person is old enough to make their mind up about their gender identity. If that person was assigned male at birth, but now wishes to live as a woman, then all along, their body was biologically a female body. Just one that happens to have a dick.

Transactivists want to erase theuse of language that ties biology with sex.

e.g. they want us to stop saying that it's women who get pregnant. They say men can get pregnant too (i.e. transmen, who were women but now ID as male).

To stop saying periods are a woman's issues. To use the word "gestator" rather than pregnant woman, "chest feeding" instead of breastfeeding".

They say to use the phrase "female genital mutilation" is transphobic. To see a piece of information about the horrific practice of FGM and think - but what about trans issues - is a perfect demonstration of some of the narcissistic people who are attracted to this ideology.

They call lesbians who don't want to date transwomen (as they have penises!) transphobic, vagina fetishists, bigots.

Transactivists in Vancouver have been waging a battle for over a decade against a rape crisis centre / women's refuge, because they refuse to let transwomen work there as they want to provide a place for their clients that's penis free. (There are other refuges in Vancouver, all the rest let trans people in).

Transactivists want to literally erase the category of women as a separate group from male-bodied people who say they are women, in every area.

RatRolyPoly · 21/05/2018 13:58

So you agree someone who identifies as a woman is not biologically female?

Oh hell yes, on current definitions certainly.

Because from what I've seen in the trans movement many of them are saying they are biologically female because they identify as 'women'. This is the issue.

The issue, from what I've seen, is that men apparently can't be women. Except someone who is biologically male quite demonstrably can be a woman - in the social context - if people would finally agree that "woman" has more than a mere biological definition. And that the word "woman" isn't suddenly useless because of it!

Do you think biological females need segregation from biological males in certain areas where biology matters like sport?

I think biology needs to be taken into account in sport - as it rightly is - with the governing bodies using the best evidence available to set participation criteria for trans athletes which mitigate any risk to safety or fair competition for both them and other competitors.

Splitting sports by men and women rather than male and female, and applying these criteria to ensure safe and fair competition achieves the best results in terms of sports participation, and so is the best approach for sport to take. IMO.

Ereshkigal · 21/05/2018 13:58

The point is that case suggests there could be something biological that "tells" people what gender they should be and it is not just down to socialisation or what their outer body looks like.

No it doesn't. I didn't say that physiological aspects of sex weren't important. Puberty is important to body and brain development. And the case I am talking about he was made to simulate sex with his brother, as a "girl". And his parents knew full well that he was a boy. I don't think you can say he received a normal female socialisation.

Bowlofbabelfish · 21/05/2018 14:03

Except someone who is biologically male quite demonstrably can be a woman - in the social context - if people would finally agree that "woman" has more than a mere biological definition. And that the word "woman" isn't suddenly useless because of it!

Someone who is biologically Male is Male. We need a different word for males who want to be feminine then - or we could just accept that not all men want to stick to the narrow stereotypes we have now. A man wanting to do the things associated with women should not NEED to be called a woman. He isn’t a woman. He should t be constrained by gender. But he is, so he feels the need to identify into the woman category. That’s the bit that needs tackling - why can’t society accept men and women who are different?

We can’t let them use the word woman. Thatsvthe thin end of the wedge. We’ve over this one repeatedly. Woman is a definite sex based category. Once you let men in you’re on shaky ground for safety, safeguarding and the very idea of what a woman is. The twisting of language and reality is so troubling.

Let transwomen be trans women. Let society accept them for what they are.

aaarrrggghhhh · 21/05/2018 14:05

someone who is biologically male quite demonstrably can be a woman - in the social context - if people would finally agree that "woman" has more than a mere biological definition. And that the word "woman" isn't suddenly useless because of it!

So again I ask the question where does this leave me then if I don't identify with this social construct of woman?

A social construct which from everything I have seen simply reinforces stereotypes that are very unhelpful for women

Crack on and create whatever behavioural social construct you want - just get your own word for it and stop trying to take over the word that describes me.

(and in terms of people with gender dysphoria again I note that for these people my understanding is that it is the physical form which is a real factor. I have a lot of sympathy for people suffering from this health condition and am actually quite comfortable with a legal fiction that males who fully transition are women)

RatRolyPoly · 21/05/2018 14:05

But isn’t that contradictory? I know I’m a woman. But it’s not because of how I feel. I’ve never been a man so I don’t know how it feels to be a man or a woman. I just am.

I just am too.

I also "just" have a hand. I don't know what it feels like to have that hand - I just have it.

But perhaps if that hand weren't there I might then have some feeling of having two hands that was not borne out by reality. Perhaps then I might be able to pinpoint the feeling of having a hand, rather than the just having one.

So perhaps one's gender identity is something it's easier to put your finger on when there is something disjointed than when everything all matches up and it all just "is".

I don't know, honestly, I'm not trans. I just like to try to understand these things.

Dungeondragon15 · 21/05/2018 14:06

And his parents knew full well that he was a boy. I don't think you can say he received a normal female socialisation.

I don't know if you are talking about the same case. What was his name? In the case I am talking about the parents knew he was a boy but they didn't tell him.He was brought up as a girl and was told he was a girl. The fact that he felt otherwise suggests that there could be something innate that tells people they are a particular gender.

RatRolyPoly · 21/05/2018 14:09

So again I ask the question where does this leave me then if I don't identify with this social construct of woman?

It doesn't leave you anywhere, it leaves you living your life just as you do right now.

Ereshkigal · 21/05/2018 14:09

He was called David Reimer. And the amoral genderquack (not the first or last) was John Money. Horrible case.

Pratchet · 21/05/2018 14:11

'If people would finally agree'

If only we would all lie about material reality it would all be fine Hmm

not a serious suggestion i hope

Ereshkigal · 21/05/2018 14:12

But he was a boy. He wasn't transgender. There could be any number of physiological or developmental reasons why he didn't gel with his fake "gender". Gender dysphoria may have a biological basis as a psychological disorder. That in no way means that males with gender dysphoria have a "female brain".

RatRolyPoly · 21/05/2018 14:17

If only we would all lie about material reality it would all be fine

If only we would all accept that "woman" both refers to the biological reality and can be used to refer to a social group then it would be better. No?

Anyway, I have to run. Lots to think about, it's been great. Cheers as ever.

MiggeldyHiggins · 21/05/2018 14:20

Except someone who is biologically male quite demonstrably can be a woman - in the social context - if people would finally agree that "woman" has more than a mere biological definition. And that the word "woman" isn't suddenly useless because of it

If you redefine the category of woman to include men, it is useless as a definition. It has to be, you have made it so. It's like changing the definition of black to also mean white, and up to also mean down. The words no longer have any meaning. And we no longer exist, as a category, and we lose all our rights and considerations as a class.

MiggeldyHiggins · 21/05/2018 14:21

If only we would all accept that "woman" both refers to the biological reality and can be used to refer to a social group then it would be better. No

no. Because it doesn't. The social group IS the biological group.

Hideandgo · 21/05/2018 14:23

Miggeldy, in your mind it becomes a useless definition. I still find it works perfectly well for anything we need to know about. Medically and in private conversation with a persons healthcare provider biological sex also needs to be acknowledged but that’s simply none of any of our business or concern.

Ireneony · 21/05/2018 14:26

Ratrolypoly

No you're muddling everything up.

Men can be women in terms of the social construct of what is a man and a woman (basically stereotypes)

The transwomen activists are saying that they literally are female and always have been because they identify as such. I (and others) are saying you cannot identify as female or male, biologically. They are saying because they identify as women that they are no different to females and should be treated as females in all spheres. Some of us are saying that sex segregation needs to be upheld in certain areas like sports and where people can be vulnerable like prisons and crisis centers because males are stronger/faster than females and males are often a danger to females.

This is being decried as 'transphobic' but I certainly am not 'phobic' or hateful to anyone, but you can't go around saying males are females because it matters in some areas (as described above)

Radical feminists would like to see the whole concept of gender dismantled and all the stereotypes abandoned so that all people can freely express themselves in line with their personalities completely unhindered by their biological sex. The trans movement appears to reinforce harmful gender stereotypes and ignore the needs and issues for females.

aaarrrggghhhh · 21/05/2018 14:26

It doesn't leave you anywhere, it leaves you living your life just as you do right now

You can't really be this disingenuous after everything you've read on these boards can you?

Your spending all this time concerned about the rights of one section of society ability to identify in a particular way but apparently this right to identify which is so important is of no importance to me?

And even putting aside the issue of the importance of identity, obviously this can impact me in lots of ways. For example, I swim in a local pool I don't want to get undressed in front of males in shared changing rooms. In my profession there are many women specific benefits that I indirectly and occasionally directly benefit from. I could go on. But instead I shall refer you to all the other threads I have seen you posting on....

Bowlofbabelfish · 21/05/2018 14:28

'If people would finally agree'

If only you women would just shut up and be nice....

MiggeldyHiggins · 21/05/2018 14:29

Miggeldy, in your mind it becomes a useless definition. I still find it works perfectly well for anhing we need to know about

No, not in my mind! In reality, ffs. If the category of women also means men, how is it of any use whatsoever?

If a womens refuge also has to admit men because they are "women" as well?
If a womens prison has to house rapists because they are "women" as well?
If a womens healthcare screening has to invite men because they are this other kind of "women"?

WOMAN means something. Stop trying to erase us.

grandplans · 21/05/2018 14:34

someone who is biologically male quite demonstrably can be a woman - in the social context - if people would finally agree that "woman" has more than a mere biological definition. And that the word "woman" isn't suddenly useless because of it!

No, you are conflating two things here.

Women are biologically women. All women. If you are not, you are not a woman.

The social side is the performance of femininity. Men certainly can perform femininity. Munroe Bergdorf recent "What makes a woman" program, for example, was all about MB performing femininity on a surface level, and emulating people like models who are all about surface looks and performance.

For many transwomen this seems to be what it's all about. That's why they tell women they don't like, who don't primp and preen ourselves that we must be "jealous" of transwomen who are "better" are being women.

Equating the performance of femininity with actual womanhood is deeply offensive IMO. It reduces what it means to be a woman to what pleases the male gaze and what fits with sexist stereotypes of how women should act. It doesn't have any intrinsic value.

Men can perform femininity all they like. It says nothing about who they are inside.

iamawoman · 21/05/2018 14:44

Dragons...might be the male hormones that made him feel something was amiss....

I dont have a gender identity! I am female and the rest is socialisation. Unless you have gender dysphoria how as a man can you possibly believe or feel you are actually a woman in any true sense. What is being a man or a woman if you take away biology , culture and socialisation.

Noqonterfy · 21/05/2018 14:47

if people would finally agree that "woman" has more than a mere biological definition.

If only the little women would shut up and just do as instructed. But I don't agree and I never will.

Dungeondragon15 · 21/05/2018 14:47

Dragons...might be the male hormones that made him feel something was amiss....

Due to the botched surgery, his male hormones weren't at the level they would be though. Even after testosterone treatment later in life he certainly wasn't very masculine.

I dont have a gender identity! I am female and the rest is socialisation.

I don't think anyone knows whether it is just socialisation.