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Men wanting to be Women

823 replies

bert3400 · 16/05/2018 22:26

To think transgender women really have no idea what being a women is ? . Maybe it's time we had a 3rd Gender . Be interested in hearing what real women & transwomen feel ?

OP posts:
Dungeondragon15 · 21/05/2018 14:54

But he was a boy. He wasn't transgender.

I'm not saying that he was transgender. My point was that something told him he was male, rather than female even though he did not have a penis and his family, doctors and everyone else was telling him he was female. The same may be true for those who are transgender even if it is incorrect.

Strongmummy · 21/05/2018 15:06

@ratrolypoly your hand example nails it in my view (pun intended). It’s only when there is something amiss you know that being one gender or another is more than just genitals and social construct. Luckily I have never experienced this and this aspect of my life has been issue free, but I want to understand and I acknowledge we have a lot to learn about gender, sex and what makes us Male or female .

Bowlofbabelfish · 21/05/2018 15:12

It’s only when there is something amiss you know that being one gender or another is more than just genitals and social construct.

Gender is complicated. But sex is pretty simple. Gender is all sorts of messy stuff to do with socialisation, the society you live in, how you’ve been brought up, all that.

But not sex. Sex is either or.

If you’re implying that there’s something ‘extra’ in us that is innately Male or female then you’re implying that people have a soul. That’s a matter of faith not observation.

MiggeldyHiggins · 21/05/2018 15:23

It’s only when there is something amiss you know that being one gender or another is more than just genitals and social construct

Thats gender. We are talking about SEX not gender

Ereshkigal · 21/05/2018 15:23

I don't think anyone knows whether it is just socialisation.

There is no conclusive evidence even with large scale studies that males and females on average have sexed brains. Whatever it is, there is no recognised lady brain. Gender dysphoria is a psychological disorder. It is not the same as a boy growing into a man while being lied to that he is a girl. Biological sex matters. Women and men are different at the cellular level.

Ereshkigal · 21/05/2018 15:25

The same may be true for those who are transgender even if it is incorrect.

Huge reach there.

Strongmummy · 21/05/2018 15:33

I don’t believe in a soul. I do believe there’s something not yet explained (but which WILL be explained scientifically at some point in the future) that explains the existence of trans people. I’m not arguing against the existence of XY or XX as To do that would be stupid and I’m not an idiot. I AM arguing that some people from very very early on know they are born into the wrong body and currently we don’t know why. I am very happy to accept trans women as women because I feel it is more than just chromosomes and social construct that makes a woman and I don’t feel they infringe on my rights as a woman.

Ereshkigal · 21/05/2018 15:34

If only we would all accept that "woman" both refers to the biological reality and can be used to refer to a social group then it would be better. No?

No. It would not. Women is not a social group which includes females and males apart from some rare intersex conditions. And those intersex women have been completely raised and socialised as female.

Ereshkigal · 21/05/2018 15:37

I do believe there’s something not yet explained (but which WILL be explained scientifically at some point in the future) that explains the existence of trans people

Yes and that's an equivalent faith based belief. I believe there may be a genetic component to the psychological disorder gender dysphoria. Many/most people identified as trans don't actually have gender dysphoria. I suspect there are a number of reasons why they think they have the brain of the opposite sex, and I think this ideology is harmful.

HerFemaleness · 21/05/2018 15:45

That thing inside a person that let's them know which set of stereotypes relate to them - for them to either accept or reject - well that's their gender identity.

Oh right, so if we stopped associating certain behaviours with the female sex and the same for men, trans people would cease to exist?

Bowlofbabelfish · 21/05/2018 15:46

There’s a genetic component to most dysphoria conditions.

You cannot be ‘born in the wrong body.’ That again implies that there’s some kind of soul or essence which is placed into a body and exists separately from it. That again is a soul in the sort of Cartesian duality type thing.

Dungeondragon15 · 21/05/2018 15:53

There is no conclusive evidence even with large scale studies that males and females on average have sexed brains.

No, but that doesn't mean there never will be any evidence.

Whatever it is, there is no recognised lady brain. Gender dysphoria is a psychological disorder.

It could be but maybe it isn't just a psychological disorder. Either way, if someone genuinely believes that they were born in the "wrong body" I don't see the need to tell them otherwise.

Strongmummy · 21/05/2018 15:55

We can’t directly observe black holes, we don’t fully understand quantum physics, but in time I’m sure we will. You’d better tell physicists that their research is faith based

TERFragetteCity · 21/05/2018 15:59

Either way, if someone genuinely believes that they were born in the "wrong body" I don't see the need to tell them otherwise.

LOL. If someone came at you saying they were a tiger and wanted to gnaw your arm off, would you stand there saying 'I completely see no need to point out...'...or would you tell them they were not a tiger, they were a human and as such, there are laws around eating other humans.

Although with some of the understanding in this thread, I guess some would just stand there.

Bowlofbabelfish · 21/05/2018 16:03

We can’t directly observe black holes

We have pretty good proxies and solid mathematical groundwork. Hawking radiation? Gravitational lensing?

Physics isn’t faith based :) theoretical physics is based on mathematical models, which are developed and put forward. Some of these are simple ideas, some are hypotheses and some are fully sketched out Theories. All have a mathematical framework behind them.
Practical physics is based on turning that stuff into experimentation.
None of it is based on feelings. The idea that ‘science doesn’t know everything thus (aliens/lizard people/life after death/whatever you fancy) exists’ is a sketchy base for a life view.

HerFemaleness · 21/05/2018 16:03

I AM arguing that some people from very very early on know they are born into the wrong body and currently we don’t know why.

Are children with cancer born in the wrong body? Or how about children with serious life limiting congenital illnesses? The answer of course is no, these children are born in the right bodies. You can't separate yourself from your body just because you don't like it even if that body is causing you misery and suffering, and depression and anguish.

drspouse · 21/05/2018 16:08

I do believe there’s something not yet explained (but which WILL be explained scientifically at some point in the future) that explains the existence of trans people.

We are already some way towards explaining it.

If you do not meet the "norms" of heterosexual society, by being attracted to the opposite sex - there is for some people a drive to "normalise" your position by taking on some of the behaviour patterns that are stereotypically associated with the opposite sex. This seems to be in extreme cases (or in extreme times e.g. when male homosexuality is proscribed to the point of being illegal, when female stereotypes are exaggerated) to lead to a wish to BE the opposite sex.

If you have had some type of trauma that causes you to have negative feelings towards your body you are more likely to experience gender dysphoria, body dysmorphia, eating disorders etc etc.

If you have an identity crisis due to some other reason (e.g. adoption, being raised as a boy like some children in some Asian countries whose parents had a long string of girls) then you are more likely to experience gender dysphoria.

If you have ASD you are more likely to experience gender dysphoria, possibly due to "black and white thinking" or to a lower likelihood of adhering to social norms.

If you have a sexual preference which means you are turned on by the thought of yourself as a member of the opposite sex, you are more likely to want to dress as or alter yourself to appear more like the opposite sex.

These are all explanations that rely on things we already know about human behaviour. I don't feel that currently we need any "additional", gender-dysphoria-specific explanations.

Ereshkigal · 21/05/2018 16:11

It could be but maybe it isn't just a psychological disorder. Either way, if someone genuinely believes that they were born in the "wrong body" I don't see the need to tell them otherwise.

I'm not "telling them otherwise". Not everything is about them and their gender identity issues. Their beliefs impact on others. I don't go up to Christians and shout "god doesn't exist", but if they want to prosecute me for blasphemy for saying I don't believe in god they can fuck off.

Ereshkigal · 21/05/2018 16:12

Although with some of the understanding in this thread, I guess some would just stand there.

Grin
Dungeondragon15 · 21/05/2018 16:12

LOL. If someone came at you saying they were a tiger and wanted to gnaw your arm off, would you stand there saying 'I completely see no need to point out...'...or would you tell them they were not a tiger, they were a human and as such, there are laws around eating other humans.

No I wouldn't tell them that they weren't a tiger. Why would I argue with someone who was potentially violent? I would call the police.

Ireneony · 21/05/2018 16:14

Trans people exist for a variety of reasons.

Some of them have personality traits and interests (stereo)typically reserved for those of the opposite sex. Society tells them they like girl things, they're acting like a girl, so the belief forms 'I must be a girl', 'i feel like a girl'

Some of them have body dysphoria which is a mental health condition commonly seen in anorexics. Nobody is telling anorexic people that it's fine to diet because they believe they are obese.

Some of them can't accept they are homosexual and the notion of being a different gender is actually more palatable (such as in Iran where transgenderism is all the rage, funnily enough in a very homophobic country)

There are much more complex issues involved as well involving different aspects of mental health, identity, socialisation and the concept of masculinity and femininity.

Generally there is nothing wrong with the live and let live attitude, if someone is happy and fulfilled living as the opposite gender then what's the issue?

The issue is when they start saying they are actually female and need access to female spaces and ignoring/dismissing the reasons females require these spaces and protections in the first place. The issue is when they demand to compete against actual females in sports, where the male bodied people will always out perform as has happened recently. The issue is when you start saying that the 'display' of femininity known socially as 'woman' is actually all it really means to be female, leaving lots of young, impressionable or insecure females who don't conform to these standards wondering who and what they actually are.

Ereshkigal · 21/05/2018 16:15

The issue is when they start saying they are actually female and need access to female spaces and ignoring/dismissing the reasons females require these spaces and protections in the first place.

YY.

TERFragetteCity · 21/05/2018 16:15

No I wouldn't tell them that they weren't a tiger. Why would I argue with someone who was potentially violent? I would call the police.

And if it was legal that they could call themselves a tiger, and you Tigerphobic, you would be the one done for a hate crime.

Dungeondragon15 · 21/05/2018 16:18

The issue is when they start saying they are actually female and need access to female spaces and ignoring/dismissing the reasons females require these spaces and protections in the first place.

I am sure that they have been using "female spaces" for a long time and it hasn't been an issue because you didn't know about it. I agree that self ID could be a big problem but if you want people to listen to your argument on that, you need to leave those who genuinely believe that they were born in the wrong body alone. The constant aggression towards people who are not doing you any harm is counterproductive.

Dungeondragon15 · 21/05/2018 16:20

And if it was legal that they could call themselves a tiger, and you Tigerphobic, you would be the one done for a hate crime.

Not if they threatened violence.Hmm