To think he should pay on first date???

[namechangerforthis123]

Had a 'frank' discussion with a girlfriend at the w/e who was outraged that I thought a first date should pay for dinner.

I am v independent, decent career, probably generally feminist views on the whole.
He made it v clear he liked me.

But it was such a turn off when he started calculating how much it was each! 

It just was a passion killer; can't explain why!!

Would be interested to hear the MN view on this. Get your flame throwers ready! 

With OLD I had a policy of always speaking to a prospective date on the phone first and that went some way to determining if they were vaguely normal or not!

Yes, this.

I met my OH via OLD. That was over 4 years ago now. We batted a few messages back and forth, he seemed genuine and down to earth and then he asked if he could call me and talk on the phone instead.

He called me that night and we chatted for a good hour. And then he asked if I’d like to meet him for a coffee. He let me choose the time and place that I was comfortable with and I had my bestie on standby with the “there’s been an emergency” phone call just in case

Fortunately we had a good, relaxed date. Got on really well and were attracted to each other. He asked me on a 2nd date the same week and the rest as they say is history!

Can’t say all my previous OLD went that well however.....

*Another massive vote for this:

Many women like men who can show they can take the lead (maybe we are hard wired for this) and a whole range of what we associate as being masculine attributes which is why we bother with the opposite sex in the first place.*

Great -and you're happy to accept everything that goes along with that caveman/woman mentality? That Men are providers and Women are accepters?

Wonder what a 'bill fairy' looks like...? Would it be a hairy fairy?

"Great -and you're happy to accept everything that goes along with that caveman/woman mentality? That Men are providers and Women are accepters?"

Well some men are "providers" and this comes naturally to them. Other men have a less clearly defined sense of this. There is no right or wrong here, it's just different personality types. When two people have children, they organise themselves in the way that comes most naturally to them. For some this might be that they both work and split everything. For others, they are more comfortable focusing on one sphere each because that's what makes practical and emotional sense to them. People gravitate towards a partner who will complement their values.

He is not being unreasonable...assuming that he doesn’t care about what impression he makes or want a second date.

I don’t think you were being unreasonable. And I disagree with some commenters that you have regressed women’s liberation by feeling the way you ;) I do think that it is a very individual thing, for both men and women. And that it also depends on the situation.

For example - a guy friend of ours is a serial internet dater, and goes on so many ‘first dates’ (usually for drinks or coffee) that it would unfeasible and unthinkable for him to pay all the time. And the women he usually meets don’t expect him to, as they understand this. However, if he likes someone and asks them it again, or for a proper dinner, he says that he always pays - but that the woman usually doesn’t expect him to and always reaches for her purse when the bill comes.

Some men have an instinct to pay, and want to cover the entire bill, because they have usually asked the woman out and feel it is the right and proper behaviour. However, they do appreciate if the woman reaches for her purse or offers to buy a drink next time or whatever.

It must be confusing for guys nowadays though, as they know some women might prefer to go Dutch.

I think that some sensitivity, compassion, understanding and an acknowledgement that we are all different goes a long way in these circumstances! But also, being honest - so if you know that you need a man who will step-up and not be afraid to treat you if he’s asked you out (and that you appreciate that, and will reciprocate another time, so it’s not always him paying) then he’s probably just not the right guy for you.

Great -and you're happy to accept everything that goes along with that caveman/woman mentality? That Men are providers and Women are accepters?

There are some terribly complicated women out there who like men to behave in a manly sort of way, but at the same time we don't want to be beaten or taken as chattel. I don't know how to explain it any better than this.

If I don't like the guy I'd offer to pay half and mean it, probably insist. If I do like him, then I'd still offer but hope he wouldn't let me because it's just not sexy!

Anyway, the whole going out for dinner thing - it's not about food, or money, it's a little dance to see if there's any chemistry, what the sexual dynamics might be. The sort of men I like would be the type who would insist on paying if they'd invited a woman out. If he asked me to pay half then the attraction would reduce. I'm pretty sure that I have to go to a lot more trouble than my date anyway - hair, make up, clothes, childcare.. generally speaking a guy just has to jump out of shower and doesn't agonise for a fraction of the time I do about what to wear, how fat I'm feeling etc.

Women's liberation to me is not about criticising other women or belittling their opinions - it's about acknowledging differences and letting a woman be who she wants, even if it is not what you agree with.

If I don't like the guy I'd offer to pay half and mean it, probably insist. If I do like him, then I'd still offer but hope he wouldn't let me because it's just not sexy!

Well said @catastrophe

I mean as I said (and many others have said,) if a man asked me out and then expected me to pay for myself, he would not get a second date. It would be SUCH a turn off! Not to mention a big of a red flag for the future. Tight arse on the first date, tight arse much further down the line.

As a few people mentioned earlier in the thread, women will ultimately be affected more financially by having babies, and their career and income will more than likely be affected - MUCH more than any man's will.

So a woman needs to know that she has a man who is generous and thoughtful and kind, and will support her when she needs it; and some tight fisted git who turns up to their first date with a calculator will not be this man, This obviously VALID point has fallen on deaf ears with some ignorant people on this thread though...

Women's liberation to me is not about criticising other women or belittling their opinions - it's about acknowledging differences and letting a woman be who she wants, even if it is not what you agree with.

THIS! The problem is some^ so-called feminists, just absolutely HATE it when other women don't behave in the manner they think they should, and see women behaving in a 'traditional' manner (like letting men pay on a first date, and open the door for them etc,) as being 'weak' and 'letting the side down.'

Fucking pathetic.

Fucking pathetic

Indeed it is, in the true sense of the word. women's liberation. Must add that to my collection of outlandishly old-fashioned phrases seen on this thread. Feel like i'm in an episode of Life On Mars.

Indeed, I hate it when women bash other women, it's usually worse than what they're bashing the woman for. I love manly men and I love to feel feminine, and it sounds like the OP swings that way too. It doesn't mean I'm weak, because I'm not, but neither am I overtly strong. However I know that I find it disappointing and weird for women to deride others using (their personal interpretation/application of) Feminism like a club.

@shinycat AGREE!!

This: Women's liberation to me is not about criticising other women or belittling their opinions - it's about acknowledging differences and letting a woman be who she wants, even if it is not what you agree with.

there are so many stereotypes and flip flopping from the hypocrisy on this thread that its actually quite funny.

As long as we don't criticise men for not paying to

siwel123

But if you've kept up you will see that men have been criticised for paying the bill, not paying the bill and going dutch.

Paying the bill - controlling - red flag
not paying the bill - tight - red flag
going dutch - tight - red flag.

.

All that has happened on this thread is that some women have been honest about the fact that they are attracted to certain behaviours in men - call it masculinity, chivalry what you will. What a shocker that is .

Some women naturally feel more feminine than others because that is how they are. Maybe they gravitate to a certain type of man and maybe the situation also applies in reverse. Some people seem to get uncomfortable about this, for whatever reason. These people like to see everything as more gender neutral. Some people are gay. Some are transsexual. Whatever. There are all types in the world and the good news is, everyone is at liberty to behave how they want and be attracted to who they want.

What a shocker that is .

Why would it be a "shocker"?

I am saying that the fact people vary in behaviour, sexuality and who / what they are attracted to is obvious.
As long as you are secure within yourself why worry about it?

Pa1oma

I don't disagree with that, I disagree that someone who goes dutch on a first date is tight, or any other of the names being spouted on here.

I disagree that just because a man pays for the first date that he cares and respects women.
I also disagree that women that use "men pay for the first date" as a meal ticket are rare.

What a “ red flag “ is to a person varies from person to person.

I also disagree that women that use "men pay for the first date" as a meal ticket are rare

I'm sort of at a loss for words at this. I can imagine few things worse than sitting through a dinner with a man in whom I have no interest, for a free dinner. Good grief.

Surely any normal person would rather be at home with bottle of wine.

I feel very feminine but disagree vehemently that a man should automatically pay on the first date.

I judge a man on wit, intelligence, kindness. My partner was barely earning enough to pay rent when we met. We always split dates and sometimes I'd pay for him as I earned considerably more.

Since we met his business has taken off. He is earning great money now and I'm on maternity leave. Throughout our relationship he has treated me with respect and brought me little gifts to show he loves me. On maternity leave he pays for everything and helps with housework. We have a great partnership but if I went by some of these rules I'd never have agreed to a second date.

There is so much more to judge a man on than his wallet.