To not understand why some parents refuse to pay proper maintenance?

[crunchymint]

Yes I know, its because they are arseholes. I know that. But I still don't emotionally understand how someone cares so little about their own children that they refuse to pay maintenance, or pay as little as they can get away with. What this really means is you don't care if your child has everything they need.

My dad used this alienation bull shit on my mum

It wouldn’t be the fact we saw him beat her to a pulp why we hated him
Or seeing her trying to kill herself as a result just her position

I know it is separate to paying maintenance I was just saying it still matters.

A lot of things are hard to prove. Doesn't mean we should ignore them

Yes, metoo but sometimes it actually does happen. It's not always "bullshit"

Ah yes the useless fuckwit ex & the inept CSA that couldn't find it despite me providing them with a photograph (they requested it) his payslip (fell out of his pocket during a visit) and his work address!! Apparently he didn't work there and never had....

When he got fed up dodging them he signed on & I go £2 a fortnight 🤔 not sure what that was going to buy!! No back payment & no arrears either. My dd is now an adult, she can see for herself what a waste of fresh air he is 😡

My ex is a self employed accountant, on minimum wage! I have a letter dated from 2010 based in this minimum wage that he only has to pay me £9 pw for both our children. He lives a lavish lifestyle, new car, big house, weekends away and expensive meals and days out. I have just sold a pile of stuff on ebay so I can take my children away in May. My folks help me out as the ex cannot step up to the plate and be a decent father to our children. My own Dad is a better role model! My children know what their father is, a narcissist and a bully. He told our daughter that his job was better than mine as he had a degree in maths- arsehole!

And basically what you've just said is oh nobody can prove parental alienation so tough shit.

Not at all. I've seen it happen and it is outrageous. It's a form of serious child abuse, unquestionably, and when proven I think the parent inflicting it should lose residence, and be allowed only supervised contact. I'm simply pointing out that is is horribly, horribly hard to prove, and short of that level of proof there is literally almost nothing you can do.

It's genuinely recognised as a massive problem in family law. Truly, it is. But what's the solution? Seriously, I'm asking? Because a lot of dedicated children's rights lawyers have struggled to come up with one, in cases where you can't justify the nuclear option of reversing primary carer, or can't determine who is the main problem.

It's one of the main reasons a Guardian is appointed in high conflict cases. And I've known people go through them. It's hell on wheels. But again: what's the solution, where both sides blame the other, and nobody is sure who is telling the truth?

I do have to say though, child support is connected to these cases a depressing amount of the time. And that's just wrong.

@perfectstorm has put it perfectly

Emotional abuse is the hardest to prove- it (generally) requires a pattern of behaviour being established. You can see your child upset, but there is nothing that you can legally do until there is something that you can prove. Its heartbreaking, its shit but the only thing you can do is keep standing up for your kids, whether you get called every name under the sun or not.

I cannot count the times I've wanted to say 'well if you dont want to contribute towards your children, you shouldnt see them'. I never have though. To quote my own argument 'the kids are not pay per view' whenever he insists that as he doesnt see them as much as he wants...

Maintenance and access are two completely separate matters. As hard as it can be, that is the thing to hold on to. If you mix the two, it looks like point scoring and undermines the access issue, however well founded.

I am so shocked and disgusted at the way that the Court system in the UK treats these matters. Where I live, in some of these circumstances the RP would be sporting a lovely pair of testicle shaped earrings by now should they have been exposed to this shite.

I am never disappointed by the amount of NRP who believe that maintenance for a child is 'fun money' for the ex. It's truly horrible.

Would I be correct in believing that legal aid has been, in the majority of cases, withdrawn from UK family law? I read things online, but am not in this jurisdiction so dont truly know.

Because they care more about punishing the primary carer than looking after their kids. Maintenance is the last bit of control they have over the primary carer...

My friends exH left work so he doesnt have to pay maintenance. He claimed bankrupcy so he doesnt have to pay anything. They split up when he was 1 and is now 10. In 9 years, He has never paid, seen him probably abt 7 times. Hes bn NC for about 5 years now. Her DS would be devastated as it was never regular. What absoloutely shocked me though was their house they had together, they had agreed to keep for DS until hes older and just rent out for now. He asked her to buy him out. She couldnt afford it so is now forcing her to sell it and wants half. Dont know what she ever saw in him

I came on here to start a thread about my ex not paying maintenance and lo and behold there is already a lengthy angry post about absent parents not paying maintenance! What a surprise!
£7.96 a week csa have calculated my ex needs to pay towards our son and still he claims he cannot afford it! Grrrrr!!!!

It’s not always the absent parent’s fault. My husband was an absent parent who was told he wasn’t allowed to see his kids, even though he paid maintenance. Then his ex tried to claim against him for a child who wasn’t his, then years later, she tried to claim for a child in further education, who had actually quit college, got a job, and wasn’t even living at home.

I knew my Xh would do this so I offered to waive maintainence in exchange for the house.
Son was 14 and dd a baby when the bastard left so it was a good deal for him.
He went into have 4 more dc so I'd never had got a penny anyway and I've the security of my home and it's equity.
It's about time these useless fathers were taken to task.
Where is the bloody law in this? It's disgraceful.

£80 a month? £40 per DD? That’s awful. When my XDH and I split up 33 years ago, he gave DD £40 a month. And he wasn’t a high flier or anything, just a recently qualified teacher. Can you revisit the financial terms of your divorce? Your ex is a total Scrooge.

My best friend situation. First exh didn't pay maintenance for years, then it was court ordered. Had nc with the child for 5 years, the came back into childs life at 16. Child then chose to go and live with father at nearly 17 and father took mother to cms to try and get more even though she was paying the calculated amount (online calculator).

This happened after she moved 180 miles for work. When she moved she did it to better both her childrens life. Whilst moving her 2nd exh was looking after their daughter until her house purchase completed. Two days before she was due to complete on the purchase she was issued a court order for child arrangement. She did not contest it because after speaking to her daughter she found her daughter wanted to stay in the same area, and go to the same school.

So she'd moved 180 miles, bought a house which was double the price of where she was to give her children the best possible opportunities and ended up with no children at home and down £800 per month before having to pay out £300 per month in child support. She has had to take in lodgers to pay for the mortgage, and child support.

She see's her son regularly as he is an hour up the road, but every time she has driven the 8 hour round trip to pick her daughter up for contact they are not in, and don't answer the phone. Her ex will not answer the phone when she has her scheduled telephone contact, and she can't afford legal representation.

So, when rp's beat everyone over the head about contact/child support think about the fact that there are people on the other side of this that are desparate, frustrated, and absolutely do not know what to do for the best.

Naturally this website is going to be heavy with rp mums, but there is always 3 sides to every story.

We have to remember each story is different I know friends who have ex’s on big money but are ‘self employed’ and manage to pay nothing- I have lived with a partner who has always paid what he should even to the extent that he is still paying 19 years on and more money then he does for our son..... his ex has never worked & expects him to keep her and his child .... we both have 2 jobs to keep our heads above the water. That’s life but just remember some men are good and some women aren’t....

You can’t have empathy with some people because they don’t have decent values. There are many men who will say “I’ll look after you” then bugger off simply because they can, they’re big children who hardly look after themselves or wear a condom.

Remember some parents are genuinely dangerous to their kids and social services are easily fooled by charming and abusive men.

I haven’t read all replies. Do this may have come up. Child maintenance may have changed as I’m going back 15 years. My OH paid the ex wife a lump sum (went through court as she wanted more) which was enough for her to buy a house and new car. She worked full time so now had no mortgage. The daughter lived with her and the son with us (wife had an affair ending in divorce) my OH had a mortgage to pay plus he had to take out a massive bank loan to pay the ex. The CSA took all his wages into account, all my wages into account. The amount he had to pay her each month was ridiculous. I had to give a chunk of my wages too. By the time we’d paid the mortgage off and loan each month there wasn’t much left for us. so ex was getting way more than we had with no mortgage. Completely unfair. So it can work against the so called absent parent. She also bought a house next door to her partner (the one she had affair with) He earned very well. But as she didn’t live with him it didn’t count. As soon as the daughter hit 18 and she couldn’t claim maintenance she moved in with the partner.

Sorry I'm very new to all this. Can I just check. If my baby's dad is in employment and I get CSA involved do they pay me and claim the money back off him. Some of these posts read as though that isn't the case that they get paid maintenance regardless and it's up to CSA to get the money off NRP. Isn't that why CSA get to keep some of the payment from the amount claimed?

keep no, they don't pay you and claim it back.

They will use info about wages etc and tell you both what he should be paying and will either get him to pay you directly, or take it straight from his wage (though I believe this takes time)

the CSA take a percentage when they take the payment from the NRP and give it to you as their fee if you like.

if he pays you directly they don't take anything.

Keep. The child maintenance service, CMS, as it is now, has to collect the money first from the ex-partner, before they send it on to you.

You’re better having a direct pay arrangement if you can agree to it. CMS can calculate the amount for both of you, send you both letters, help the non resident parent set up a direct payment to you, pass on bank details etc.

If CMS have to collect the money from the other parent there is a 20% additional charge to the paying parent and there is a 4% deduction to the amount the receiving parent is sent.

And that's another piss take. If the cms have to collect for non payment the full charge should be added to the non payer, not by reducing what the nrp receives.

what annoys me is the CMS give the NRP so many chances at each stage to pay when the nrp has no intention of paying

Well that's a pain in the neck! I just thought I was going to be fine with help by CMS (sorry I got mixed up in earlier post and put another governing body) I can understand it being more complicated if he's self employed etc but when they have actual work pay slips and CMS could deal with HMRC I thought that would cover everyone and yes, just take it straight from wages.

If a payment came straight from his wages does anyone know how that would appear on a wage slip - CO PAYMENT or something like that would it say?

Cath, I'm sorry if my post upset you (genuinely sorry) and you're right, I don't have any experience of the family court system, thankfully.

Why didn't your ex request the Judge punish his ex if she was still withholding contact and that was the only option left? I'd gladly punish someone who prevented a relationship between me and my child. I get it would be upsetting to the child, which is something no parent wants but it would be a short-term upset, surely? Once your DH built up a relationship with them, they'd learn themselves he was a good man.

Although I acknowledge alienation does happen, what I don't understand is how? If the parent being alienated always had a good relationship with the children how is it the other parent can damage this with only words? Does it only happen with very young children?

My ex accuses me of alienating his children, whilst actively trying to turn them against me (even though in truth he doesn't actually want them. I have repeatedly offered shared custody up until recently when DD told me she hates going to his house). All he's managed to do is be disowned by his eldest child and frequently in the bad books of the younger one for calling me names and telling lies about me.

I beg both kids to see him because I know the shit I'll have to put up with from him if they refuse. I even invite him to the house to see the oldest, who then promptly barricades herself in her bedroom.

The youngest is also becoming increasingly intolerant of his controlling behaviour and his attitude towards me and refusing to see him more frequently than ever.

I can't stop this, only he can by behaving like a balanced, loving parent. Though, I suppose Ex-H might have more luck alienating the children from me if he at least pretended to be a decent human being.