Twofigs while not excusing the ex wife's poor behaviour, again the csa amount is a MINIMUM. It rarely comes close to 50% of the cost of raising those children which is what it SHOULD be!
"So you can see why the wider world gets pissed off with the welfare state, not to mention ex and new partners trying to have their own family." Nope! Because how much maintenance an NRP is required to pay is NOTHING to do with RP's income whether that comes from employment, benefits or the lottery!
"Maintenance is not included in the mums benefits calculations so she has a basic income plus then anything from NRP." Wrong
It USED to affect benefits but that was stopped BECAUSE it was leading to child poverty. The benefits system at that time worked such that if you got ANY maintenance it was assumed you'd received the full amount and this was happening regularly as it was supposed to. If it didn't there was a whole rigmarole to go through to prove you weren't receiving it. I was subject to this system when I first split from my ex.
NRP is responsible for 50% of the cost of raising THEIR child REGARDLESS of whether the nrp 'needs' it or not.
I will say though that equally I know that historically the nrp's new spouses income used to be included in calculations, I consider that wrong too because they have no responsibility to that child. However, subsequent children should not take from the older children from previous relationships which is what happens now. If an nrp can't afford to pay a proper amount of maintenance and have more children they shouldn't have more children.
"RPs get full benefits and are often far better off than the non RP who does not get HB, ChB, Tax Credits"
Also YivaMoon
bull! The RP's have the FULL cost of raising those children. I've never met a nrp for whom paying a decent amount of child maintenance would genuinely see them hard up. Usually the contrary.
My ex owns a 5 bed detached house with front and back gardens and double garage, he and wife 2 each have new cars, latest tech, several pets, 5 more DC, regular expensive holidays for the whole family, nicely clothed, kids go on all the school trips etc - he's NEVER paid regularly and never the full minimum amount required in one go. Based on what he should have paid (based on min) he owes over £20k. He is very much the higher earner. We were together over a decade, married almost 8 years and dd was very much planned.
"They still have to pay out for housing and some node of transport to go to work and other general living costs." The RP has to cover all these costs AND the additional costs of raising the child/ren.
I've NEVER seen anyone advised to withhold contact to enforce maintenance. In my case I tried everything I legally could to get my ex to SEE dd! I've kept all the paperwork so that dd can see what really happened if she chooses. All the emails, transcribed texts (mainly him cancelling contact at the last minute), solicitors letters full of his excuses and ridiculous demands... She has him on her social media, he has her phone number he's not blocked on her or my phone yet she's lucky IF he calls for 5 mins sometime around her birthday (because he can't remember when it is or how old she is).
"The truth is that as a society we don't really care that single parents, their children and ultimately the taxpayers are picking up the bill for these useless men. There is no uproar amongst the public over this issue. Time and time again you will see people make excuses for these men or turn a blind eye." Largely because as a pp said most RP's are women, used to being ignored and oppressed and too busy raising these children to organise proper protests.
"My point is that it’s not just dads." I certainly haven't said it is, as I've mentioned on previous threads on this subject I have personal knowledge of nrp mum's who are just as bad.
"It amazes me that councils are capable of sending bailiffs around if you neglect to pay council tax in warp speed - but don't pay for your children and not much happens." It pisses me off! There are supposed sanctions available to csa/cms yet I've NEVER heard of anything beyond aoe actually being enforced and even THAT takes years! This includes prison sentence. In my opinion if they start actually sending the worst offenders to prison then other offenders will start paying. The govt needs to stop fucking about over this!
Feckitall while I sympathise to a degree, it's also true there are many RP's also with serious mh issues who have also had to raise their DC and pay for them in spite of their own ill health. Not being paid regular consistent maintenance adds to our stress.
"Also when people mention dads buying extras instead of paying proper maintenance, this really annoys me. These are dads that will buy nice presents for their kids like electronics, but refuse to pay for the boring day to day costs like childcare, afterschool clubs, bills and rent/mortgage. It is simply a variation of Disney dad." Totally agree with this too. So manipulative.
Tawanda - your husband will have agreed to his exw being a sahm and therefore entitled to spousal maintenance as it suited him too. Re 'people should be more careful who they have children with' in addition to abuse, rape, contraceptive failure there's people like me who chose someone who before our divorce slated deadbeat dads, even falling out with friends on the subject of non payment of child maintenance, total turnabout after our split - so much so his own mother doesn't recognise him! He's no longer friends with anyone he was before our split, everyone that knew him then completely shocked both by the cheating and the deadbeat behaviour. Both his parents utterly ashamed of him.
"Tawanda Spousal maintenance is not given in this country in that circumstance. So there is something more you are not telling us." Agreed.
"I don't understand why ex h's partner (who he is buying a house with) income isn't counted when if I were to move a man into my home (never going to happen) his income would be included in any calculations." No it wouldn't not for cm. Your exh income with deductions for children he lives with are all that's taken into account. Neither your new partner's nor his incomes are part of the calculations.
"Especially when they have a second family." They shouldn't have a second family if they can't afford to do so without it causing a financial loss to the children of the first family.
"Yes some seem to think all maintenance should be used for kids clothes and extras. Anyone who has kids living with them needs a bigger house than if they didn't have kids. This means rent/mortgage, bigger council tax, water rates, heat and light, food. These all need to be paid for, and maintenance goes towards these costs. Then there are clubs, childcare, school trips, school lunches, all the extras for school, school uniforms. It all adds up." Exactly, so often nrp's think if they can't touch what the money's been spent on its not been spent on the DC. But basic living costs are rarely tangible.
"what if they themselves do not reproduce but have step children to support." Step children shouldn't even be a factor in calculating cm. Their OWN parents are responsible for supporting them financially NOT an nrp who has responsibilities to their OWN children. Not compulsory to move in with a new partner if doing so means not paying maintenance or hardship for any children involved the adults should decide not to.
"From what he's been telling me" so often the case too - you ONLY know his side of it.
"Because his ex-wife tried every trick in the book to alienate him from his sons and succeeded in the end." That's NO excuse! He is still responsible financially for HIS children.
"No. That life is messy and never simple, and that people. Not just children suffer." But the children have NO choice in the matter. Are vulnerable too. It's as complicated or as simple as the adults' conscience makes it. It's actually very simple - an nrps step children are NOT their financial responsibility and should not be used as an excuse for not paying cm or not paying a reasonable amount of cm to their OWN children.
"Don't forget not only do these deadbeat parents refuse to pay child support or see their children, they always expect their children at 16/17 or 18 suddenly want to see them and see how 'wonderful' they are. And when they don't the mother MUST have bad mouthed them rather then said child realising of their own back how useless the NRP is." Yep! As if their children are too stupid to see them for who they really are.
"People can make excuses but its a choice to lower payments" exactly.
"So what if you have a child with someone who has children, is it right that you continue paying the same amount of maintenance and your child together potentially has a worse life than your previous kids?" 1 highly unlikely subsequent children worse off 2 irresponsible to have more children if it means you can't afford the maintenance due to the already existing children. If you can't afford more children don't have them.
Worridmum it is true - partly due to most rapes not being reported let alone convicted. Just because they aren't convicted doesn't mean it didn't happen. I personally know of cases where the father has raped the CHILDREN and still get unsupervised access - and that was even with convictions and prison sentences served!
Hotstepper you're no better than the deadbeat men. Your son is living with his dad so his dad has to pay more for housing, council tax, heating, water, furniture and household equipment plus feed and clothe (somehow don't believe you buy ALL his clothes and shoes) your son, pay for school equipment, uniform, trips, hobbies etc etc
"Are we really arguing over this sort of amount?" £6 when you're on the bones of your arse can make a big difference.
Re how much should it be - Theres an amount benefits say a child needs to live on - should be half that at least - it very rarely is. Personally I think it should be minimum 50% of what was spent on the child, difference in rent etc when the couple were still together. Easy to calculate from bank statements and bills from that time.
But from where we are at the moment FIRST we need to tackle those paying nothing - with no nonsense tactics. It needs to become socially unacceptable to be a deadbeat parent.
Cathf the RP being shitty doesn't excuse the nrp not paying maintenance which is FOR THE CHILD. It's petty and childish. There IS NO justification for not paying. NONE. If the RP is being shitty over contact that is addressed separately. Just as RP cannot use non payment of maintenance as justification for obstructing contact.
"I legit don't know anyone else who doesn't pay for their kids." Yea cos nrps NEVER lie about this eh? You see any proof they're paying?