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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder why people stay Mrs after divorce?

312 replies

TrainsandDiggers · 13/05/2018 19:03

Linked to the other popular thread (which I apologise I have not been able to read all of, so this may be repeating somewhat...) I’ve often wondered why some women chose to remain known as Mrs after divorce. Even if they want to keep their surname, why the title?

(No judgement on anyone who does this btw - just genuinely curious).

OP posts:
JassyRadlett · 14/05/2018 20:46

I think you may have bypassed the issue for yourself because women who change their names don't tend to bother women who don't. It should work both ways.

Excuse me while I weep with laughter at this wild assertion. The number of sanctimonious women who have commented on or judged my decision not to change my name IRL, let alone on MN where the ‘why even bother getting married if you don’t change your name’ and ‘it’s a sign of commitment to your husband, you must not really be committed to the marriage’ comments are trotted out with depressing regularity.

I’ve never commented IRL on another woman’s decision to change her name. On MN I aim to confine myself to the general/conceptual rather than individual.

The idea that women who change their names don’t bother those of us who kept ours is preposterous.

PoorYorick · 14/05/2018 20:48

The idea that women who change their names don’t bother those of us who kept ours is preposterous.

Well, it's been my experience, so there you go. For what it's worth, anyone who disparages your choice to keep your name is a bellend.

Dungeondragon15 · 14/05/2018 20:55

I thought the "Mrs" just related to the fact someone has changed their name to their husbands on marriage. Therefore they would still be "Mrs" after divorce if they kept the name. I didn't change my name so I use "Ms" usually.

JassyRadlett · 14/05/2018 20:57

Well, it's been my experience, so there you go.

Glad to have enlightened you on what some others experience. I wouldn’t dream of talking about what women who change their names experience from others. Not my experience, not my story. How would I know?

For what it's worth, anyone who disparages your choice to keep your name is a bellend.

I’m well aware of that. Sadly there is no law against bellends, including those one is related to by marriage.

YoucancallmeVal · 14/05/2018 21:01

I am, on paper, Mrs x. I refer to myself when asked as Ms, which i hate but don't really want to be Mrs either. I won't change my surname until dd is an adult and at the moment, professionally, it is easier. Ultimately though, it's been my name for 20 years and I will keep it until I choose not to anymore.

PoorYorick · 14/05/2018 21:01

Well, Mousse says that she has 'bypassed the issue' by not changing her name, so I was taking that to mean she hadn't been berated for it.

The way I see it, the issue will remain for as long as there are people who will try to oppose women who made a different choice with regards to their names.

So I am massively in favour of just leaving women alone to be Miss, Mrs or Ms, and to change or not change their names as they wish. Once it becomes simply a neutral choice that any woman has a perfect right to make, it ceases to be an issue or to cause concerns.

JassyRadlett · 14/05/2018 21:20

So I am massively in favour of just leaving women alone to be Miss, Mrs or Ms, and to change or not change their names as they wish. Once it becomes simply a neutral choice that any woman has a perfect right to make, it ceases to be an issue or to cause concerns.

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on titles. As long as women choose titles that denote their marital status it will have an impact on those ognon us who would prefer titles that are truly neutral. We have Ms, which (misapprehensions about spinsters and divorcees aside) still makes a statement related to marital status (ie that we don’t want to use a title denoting marital status). As long as titles related to marital status are in common use, women won’t have an equivalent of ‘Mr’.

I think it will change eventually to single titles, though quite slowly. It’s happening faster in some other countries. In the meantime, it is what it is. Far from ideal, and impossible to see a neutral outcome in the way you describe.

DioneTheDiabolist · 14/05/2018 21:26

If women who change their names on marriage impact those who don't, does that mean that women who don't change have an impact on those who do?Confused

I have never thought who owns that woman when I am told their name or title. Is that a common thought then?

PoorYorick · 14/05/2018 21:27

As long as women choose titles that denote their marital status it will have an impact on those ognon us who would prefer titles that are truly neutral.

I don't know. If divorced women are increasingly using Mrs (I don't know if it's an upward trend, but certainly from this thread it seems a significant number of people make this choice) then it's not going to denote much after a while.

I'd be quite happy to see a change to single titles, personally. I've always gone by Ms because I've always preferred not to disclose my marital status all the time when it's irrelevant. That didn't change when I married. I changed my surname because I wanted to, but I prefer a neutral title. My surname alone, to a stranger, doesn't indicate that I'm married.

I didn't comment on the recent thread on the single titles topic, but I read it with interest.

But as long as there are women who actively want to be Miss or Mrs, I'm happy to respect that choice and not make any character judgements based on the title they prefer. Ridiculous, some of the thought processes on here.

OurMiracle1106 · 14/05/2018 21:28

Because it cost money to change it over on you’re passport and it’s a loss of faff for nothing if you’re not changing your actual name?

I’m a divorced Mrs exhusbandssurname

Will be changing my name at some point though

PoorYorick · 14/05/2018 21:31

Yeah, I haven't changed my name on my passport because of the faff and expense. When it expires and I'm renewing it anyway, I'll get the new one in my married name. I didn't change my name on my driving licence until it needed renewing.

crumpet · 14/05/2018 21:33

I couldn’t be bothered. Might rethink it at some point when the children are grown up, but it’s not a bad name, and not a priority to change it. I used Ms a lot before I was married, when I was married, and continue to do so. Not a major fan of that word either, but prefer to use the option which doesn’t define me by my marital status.

catherinedevalois · 14/05/2018 21:39

All the women who have had problems resolving what to do, please encourage your dds to retain their birth name and title! If only Cheryl Tweedy Cole Fernandez-Versini's mother had done this she wouldn't be so pitiful. Shock

Moussemoose · 14/05/2018 21:40

I used 'kind of woman' in a general way not as a quote.

Your use of "This is your agenda" implies I have a series of beliefs on this matter that I wish to impose. I don't. I think people should be allowed to choose I just think the decision to change does have very unpleasant historical links. It does - legally these links have gone but historically they exist. People choose to overlook these links but names and honourifics have been used to control women's activities in the recent past.

I repeat it is in the not so distant past working women retained Miss as they would have to leave their job if they got married. A Miss could not get housing. You could only get contraception if you were a Mrs. This is not a long time ago in a distant land this is within the lifetime of people you know. The choice to change is not a 'lesser' choice but it undeniably has unpleasant historical associations.

It will not be a neutral choice when people like you assume agendas based on name choices.

You are determined to believe I want the choice removed I do not. I just think if more people didn't change their name or simply refused to use a title at all life would be simpler.

PoorYorick · 14/05/2018 21:41

Cheryl's chosen to keep a line of names as long as her arm (I presume, from your post). She could just as easily have chosen to go back to her maiden name, keep the name of her favourite husband, never have changed in the first place or do whatever. The point is, she should be able to make whatever choice she prefers without any sort of judgement on her character.

catherinedevalois · 14/05/2018 21:45

But she wouldn't be in the embarrassing position of having to use just her forename if she had just kept her birth name (like men do)

PoorYorick · 14/05/2018 21:49

It will not be a neutral choice when people like you assume agendas based on name choices.

How many times do I have to keep saying that my issue with you isn't that you chose not to change your name, but your ongoing disingenuousness about the issue?

You clearly have an agenda because you're here in every post telling me why my choice is wrong, claiming to find perfectly simple concepts 'odd' or 'confusing', implying that women who choose to change are somehow 'dismissing concerns' and all sorts of rot.

You have also failed to provide any examples whatsoever in which I disparaged the decision not to name change, because I never did anything of the kind. But your disingenuousness prevents you from admitting it. Even though it's clear to everyone who's reading.

I just think if more people didn't change their name or simply refused to use a title at all life would be simpler.

I think that life would be simpler if we just accepted and respected women's choice to change, not change, or use any title they like. Then women would be free to do whatever they choose without the weight of judgement over it. In my case, to lose the association with a violent, abusive man and a history of schoolyard bullying.

That's my choice, and my life would most definitely be easier if you just respected it without pretending to be incapable of understanding it. You can understand it without choosing the same for yourself, as you quite clearly do realise.

woollyheart · 14/05/2018 22:09

Women were expected to change their name because it was assumed that it would be easy for them, as legal documents, financial affairs would all be dealt with by their husbands.
It is still relatively easy for a very young woman to change their name, so young married women may feel happy to change theirs.
However, it becomes increasingly difficult, inconvenient and expensive to change your name as you mature and have legal, professional and financial status in your own right. Therefore, many divorced or widowed women prefer not to risk the chaos that is likely to ensue when you change your name.

Moussemoose · 14/05/2018 22:17

You haven't disparaged my position on name changing, you have however implied that my 'agenda' is to remove choice. I don't want to remove choice.

But this is precisely what you are calling for with this societal change you want in which women don't make the choice I made

I am agree there should be choice, it just seems one choice is complex and fraught with angst and judgment. One is really simply and already used by a large portion of the population - men.

I want a societal shift not a change in the law.

why my choice is wrong

I have not said you choice is wrong. You are determined to be oppressed aren't you? I have pointed out there are unpleasant historical associations with name changing, but that is simply the truth. If you choose to think that makes your choice wrong - you go ahead and think that. I would not make the choice you made because of those associations, that is my reasoning. You are perfectly entitled to your own opinions and choices.

Again, you complain against judgment when judging me and my 'agenda'. The simplest way to remove judgment is to adopt the system that is used by men that has no judgment attached.

But if you don't want to that's your decision.

DioneTheDiabolist · 14/05/2018 22:53

I am agree there should be choice, it just seems one choice is complex and fraught with angst and judgment.

But for many women it is not at all complex and there is no angst. You're right about the judgement though. That bit sucks and it comes from all directions.Sad Women are damned if they do and damned if they don't. So they should do whatever is best for them.

And we should challenge judgemental attitudes . Including our own.

Graphista · 14/05/2018 22:53

"because there used to be huge prejudice against unmarried mothers" I can assure you there still is. Especially in certain parts of the country eg where I am lots of Catholics (I was raised Catholic) so being a divorcee let alone a never married mother IS still stigmatised. To the point it has affected how myself and my dd have been treated inc in medical situations (which yes is illegal but honestly if I sued or even complained every time it happened I'd spend my life in bureaucratic knots!)

Reallyanotherone you're right it should be same for both men and women.

I think all adult women should be Mrs. Lose the indication of if they are or have been married - nobody's business.

I believe in Germany Frau is now used for all adult women and Fraulein rarely used. Would be interested to know what's done in other countries. Eg I also know that in Italy women don't automatically take their husbands surname but keep their birth name.

Deadgood - interesting to know France does the same as Germany I think?

My ex is not happy I kept the name but again it's the same as my dd and he would not have given permission to change dds name (even though he's a deadbeat arse). His 2nd wife has chosen to double barrel, he tried to make out it was because I kept his name, she made it clear to me it's because she likes her maiden name, there's only her and her sister and her sister married a guy who already had a double barrelled name so took his so it was her way of continuing her family name. Their DC have the double barrelled name.

IF I were to remarry (highly unlikely) whether I took their name or not would depend on if I liked it, if they liked the idea, how dd felt about it. In that order.

"Guess I am just a feminist!" Nope! Wrong there too - feminism to most is about CHOICE criticising other women for their choices is possibly the least feminist act.

Moodance you are very much coming across as if you THINK you are superior, instead you're seeming over critical and insulting.

"If it's so much bother why do it in the first place?" As I said for me it distanced me from my father (my birth name was also unusual and has 4 possible spellings and was often mispronounced which is also annoying - had enough nonsense with my first name which is not pronounced how many Brits think) but also (and I suspect this is true for many) when you first marry and change your name you're usually younger and there's less formal attachment to your maiden name, less paperwork. When you're older there's usually TONS more paperwork to sort which is not only time consuming and can be complicated, and also expensive. Getting divorced is ALREADY time consuming, complicated and expensive! Plus as several posters have said there may be an established professional reputation linked to the married name - even business name and business papers.

I've now had my married name for longer than I had my maiden name.

"Men just have a name. No faff, no justification, no discussion, no guilt, no judgment just a name." Not true for all men. My ex fil also had an abusive birth father and changed to his step fathers name, which his mother took, but it was easier for him as he did it during the 1940's and it was something many did just by informing others.

"It's odd that men don't have this name change angst" no it's not odd they have no angst about it because they aren't stigmatised as unmarried fathers or unmarried at X age as women have and still are being.

"it really isn't that long ago that names restricted life choices for women." Still happening - see threads where women have taken the name of their non British named husband and how it affects job opportunities, credit, housing...

As recently as the 80's with my maiden name (obviously Irish) that affected the same.

Also being a miss or Mrs affected medical treatment especially relating to contraception and pregnancy. Still does in parts of the U.K.

Discrimination still goes on just the clever bigots claim other reasons for their bigotry.

zsazsajuju · 14/05/2018 23:27

Glazed over is right- women tie themselves in all these weird knots with name changing so they can have a “family name”. Then get divorced or remarried and change again, try to change their kids names, etc. If anything is faff is all this silly name changing because that’s what we used to do when women were property and couldn’t vote.

Marriages have an even chance of ending in divorce and over 90% of single parents are women. You want a family name, call your kids after yourself. If your husband wants the same name, let him change his (surely can’t only be women who have names that are difficult to spell).

zsazsajuju · 14/05/2018 23:36

And yorrick, what happens if your marriage (like half) ends in divorce? Shall you then keep your married name? What if you get married again? If you didn’t like your name (it’s yours not your fathers same as your husbands is his) why not just change it to something you do like? Rather than change it to the same as whoever you are in a relationship with.

TheOriginalEmu · 14/05/2018 23:57

Because I prefer it to my maiden name. Emu Hardy is a much better name than Emu Spitz. That’s my really maiden name....I’m now considering changing my first name to Emu Hmm Grin

DioneTheDiabolist · 15/05/2018 00:16

You want a family name, call your kids after yourself.

No thanks. When I moved into my first home after leaving ExH, my mum asked me if I was going to go back to my old name. When I said "No, I'm keeping this one" she said "That's probably for the best".ShockGrin