To wonder why people stay Mrs after divorce?

[TrainsandDiggers]

Linked to the other popular thread (which I apologise I have not been able to read all of, so this may be repeating somewhat...) I’ve often wondered why some women chose to remain known as Mrs after divorce. Even if they want to keep their surname, why the title?

(No judgement on anyone who does this btw - just genuinely curious).

Individuals come on the thread and state that they have no issue with name changing but it clearly is an issue for many.

Lots of posters are distressed and unsure, judgments are being made and other posters testify to those judgements still happening today.

Names clearly matter to people and there is a simple solution that would solve many, but not all, of these issues. Apply the same rules to men and women, keep your name. If you dislike it change it, but do that for other reasons not revolving round your love life.

It really is that simple.

How would you know if my name is that on my birth certificate, one that I changed by deed poll or one I adopted on marriage? You wouldn't.

Yes, there is a simple solution. Women should do what suits them best. And people who judge women should stop it.

You want a family name, call your kids after yourself. If your husband wants the same name, let him change his (surely can’t only be women who have names that are difficult to spell)

Then I’d be condemning the kids to the “difficult name”.

I assume there are equal numbers of males with tricky names. I just happened to meet the equivalent of Mr Bloggs.

Funnily enough new bf is also a very easy name. Maybe that’s my type

It's NOT that simple though, because your solution pisses off all the people who have already changed and who you are judging with this "just stop everyone changing, then everything will be fine" bollocks.

It's all just ephemera. We have real feminist problems to deal with, real issues facing women that affects us all. Our choices about what name we go by are nothing to anyone else.

I am the opposite, I can’t get my head round being “Mrs” so changed from “Miss” to “Ms” on marriage.

Thinking about it. I approve of people being Mrs even if not being married. Dissociating titles from marriage is a good thing in my opinion. I can't see the point in titles anyway, but if we must have them they shouldn't relate to whether or not women are single, married or divorced.

Having read a bit more of the thread, I agree, Dungeon.

Can’t remember which poster said the 1970s feminists made a mistake with the whole “Ms” thing, but it’s a good point.

I started calling myself “Ms” more often from mid 20s onwards because “Miss” seems a bit silly and childish. People don’t take you seriously if you are a “Miss”.

At the same time, when I see people get married and immediately change their surnames on Facebook to their husband’s name and proudly calling themselves “Mrs”, I can’t help but feel there is an element of showing off and feeling like you’ve “made it”, now you’re married. It’s all a bit Pride and Prejudice, with the constant dread of being an old maid, and Lydia lording it over her older sisters when she becomes Mrs Wickham, even though she has just married a total arsehole.

We should just have one title for adult women. Our marital status is none of anybody else’s business and it’s a bit archaic to be defined by it.

In the UK (where I am from) I am going to be Ms Maiden Name Married Name (with no hyphen) but probably just use one name on a daily basis. In France (where I live) I am Madame Maiden Name Married Name but will probably start going by Madame Married Name because it is much easier to spell and pronounce. (My run of the mill English surname is an impossible foreign tongue-twister here.)

In France I’m pretty sure it’s just “Mademoiselle” for young girls and “Madame” for more mature women.

Yes, you can help any feelings when you see people NCing on FB. You can recognise that you are judging in a similar vein to fictional character created 200 years ago and realise how ridiculous that is.

Or I could just continue to be entitled to my opinion. It’s not as if I tell any of these people what I am thinking.

(Pride and Prejudice is still very relevant, by the way. Many of the social observations made by Jane Austen in her novels still hold absolutely true, including this idea that being married is somehow a status symbol.)

In France I’m pretty sure it’s just “Mademoiselle” for young girls and “Madame” for more mature women.

Yes, that is what they do in France. It would be sensible to do that here too. As long as people use "ms" people will make assumptions about marital status.

I have no issue with those who change their names.

I just think because its women, and pretty much only women, that change their names on marriage, it will always have connotations of the woman’s identity being subsumed by the mans.

If men genuinely had the same choice and ability to change their name on marriage, then that would go someway to evening things up. If as many men changed their names as women, then it would become simply a choice of family name.

It will never happen though i don’t think. As why would men go to the hassle of name changing when there are so many women willing to.

Those who did change their names- would your husband have changed his if you asked? Seriously?

So while it only remains an option for women it is not an equal choice within a relationship.

I just think because its women, and pretty much only women, that change their names on marriage, it will always have connotations of the woman’s identity being subsumed by the mans

Well stop thinking that and perpetuating that stupid idea, because you are the problem! Ask any woman who changed her name if THEY feel like their identities have been subsumed by anyone, and they will tell you no, if they chose it. IT's YOUR perception that is at fault here, pushing your ideas onto their choices. Stop it.

And yorrick, what happens if your marriage (like half) ends in divorce?

I would make whatever choice I prefer. I very much doubt I'd want to go back to my maiden name, so I'd probably continue as Ms Marriedname (I use Ms already, always have done since I was 18). If I felt strongly enough about it to create a new name by deed poll, I'd do that.

In short, I would do what I wanted, as I hope other women would do. And if they do something different to me, that is FINE.

why not just change it to something you do like?

I did! You're like Mousse when she was patronising me by telling me to choose the name I wanted for the reasons I wanted, and refusing to accept that this is exactly what I did do!

Individuals come on the thread and state that they have no issue with name changing but it clearly is an issue for many.

Yes, it is an issue for you because you are continually trying to dismiss the choices that do not align with yours. I do not care that you kept your name. You do care that I changed mine and you think your choice is superior. That's the difference.

Names clearly matter to people and there is a simple solution that would solve many, but not all, of these issues.

Yes - make whatever choice you like, and respect others' rights to do the same without denigrating them. That's my solution. Your solution is for all other women to make the same choice as you. And that's the kind of feminism that needs to shut up and get back in the kitchen.

If you dislike it change it, but do that for other reasons not revolving round your love life.

I will change it for whatever reasons I damn well please, not the ones that you deem to be acceptable. And my marriage is a little more to me than a 'love life', thank you very much.

No.

You cannot tell me what to think. I am sure women who change their names think they are doing it out of free choice. The fact that men don’t exercise the same free choice about showing their love and respect, and desire to be a family, tells me that there is an inequality here.

It is not free choice until everyone has the same choice.

It says an awful lot about that choice and identity that men don’t, won’t change their names.

Whichever way you look at it it is women that are making the changes, as usual.

I am entitled to my opinion. I think changing your name makes you part of his family. You are entitled to do so, of course, but your can’t tell me it’s an equL arrangement when your husband doesn’t make the same concession.

I think the point is that if it really bothered you that much you would have changed it. In fact you were happy to wait until you got married and changed it on marriage to your husbands name.

This “my name was too difficult to pronounce/spell/etc” seems to disproportionately affect women. Yet they don’t seem to do anything about it unless they get married.

Your marriage is your love life surely.

You are not freely choosing a new name - you are taking your husbands name. So stop making excuses. It’s your choice but it’s not a feminist one. You’re choosing to be ofFred.

You cannot tell me what to think.

I am not telling you what to think, I am telling you what to respect. Alternative choices by people who are not you.

I am sure women who change their names think they are doing it out of free choice...It is not free choice until everyone has the same choice.

I thought you didn't like people telling each other what to think. So perhaps you could not insult the intelligence of women like me by telling us what is in our own minds?

It says an awful lot about that choice and identity that men don’t, won’t change their names.

No, it tells us about the history of the institution. We know this history, we know it hasn't always been grand, but we understand that it has shaped why this choice remains today. Many happy, emancipated and financially independent women do it - one could even say we have 'owned' or 'reclaimed' it and turned it into something we have a choice about.

To be perfectly honest, if I'm going to choose the name of one of two men, I'd rather it was the one I chose to be related to.

I am entitled to my opinion.

Nobody has suggested otherwise, ffs.

You are entitled to do so, of course, but your can’t tell me it’s an equL arrangement when your husband doesn’t make the same concession.

Thank you, but I am a better judge than you not only of what is in my own mind, but what is in my own marriage.

This is what's so utterly obnoxious about some of the dad's namers on here. It is not enough for you and Mousse to make your choice and have it respected. You must assert, constantly, that it is the superior choice, and that by not aligning with you, I and others must be in unequal relationships and incapable of free thought.

And I say - spin on it!

reallyanotherone Out of interest, what do you think people should do?

I quite like the principle of the Icelandic naming system, but I’m not sure how well it works in practice, especially with multicultural families.

If you decide that you will each keep your name, fine, but you still need to decide what name your kids will have. And even if you give them a double barrelled name it’s only putting off the issue for another generation until they marry and have kids.

So what would be the ideal solution, in your view?

My “perfect” solution would be to change the law so men can also change their name by producing a marriage cert.

Then hopefully a societal change so a couple deciding to get married can choose either surname, double barrel it, portmanteau, pick something entirely different, or keep their own names.

But get away from the default women must give up their name.

Like i said. Isn’t going to happen is it? Because men like the statis quo where they get to keep their names, their children have their name, and they get to carry on as before.

It is the above that tells me it isn’t a fair fight when it comes to changing name on marriage.

I never said mine is a superior choice. My point is that if you want a “family name” there isn’t a choice is there? It will 99% of the time be the woman “choosing”.

And even if you give them a double barrelled name it’s only putting off the issue for another generation until they marry and have kids.

They just give one of their surnames to each child as in Spain.

You cannot tell me what to think. I am sure women who change their names think they are doing it out of free choice. The fact that men don’t exercise the same free choice about showing their love and respect, and desire to be a family, tells me that there is an inequality here

You realise that actually says "You can't tell me what to think, but I'm telling you that what you think is not what you actually think"?

Also, its really twatty

My “perfect” solution would be to change the law so men can also change their name by producing a marriage cert.

I'd have no problem with that but Parliament is unlikely to prioritise it any time soon. If it went to public referendum, I'd vote for it. In the meantime, this is the system we've got and I'm happy for you to choose differently to me. I'm not happy for you to insult my intelligence and marriage over it.

It is the above that tells me it isn’t a fair fight when it comes to changing name on marriage.

It's not a fight. Whence the conflict-based language? If your husband actually fights you on the issue of name changing, that's a great sign that you shouldn't marry him. It's a choice.

I never said mine is a superior choice.

It is what you clearly imply when you say that I 'think' I changed my name out of free choice instead of accepting without question that I DID. Or when you use conflict-based language on the issue. Or when you put the word 'choice' in inverted commas, to let us know that it isn't really a choice at all.

It will 99% of the time be the woman “choosing”.

And how many times do women get to be the ones who make choices?

The more I think about it, the more I like the fact that this choice readily exists.

I've just had a very quick skim through the thread so far. I may have missed something. From what I see, though, while there's robust arguments on both sides, I don't see where a woman who changed her name has insulted the intelligence or moral principles of a woman who did not.

I see plenty such insults going in the other direction though. I've never had a male partner who was as insulting and offensive as some of you people, just because I didn't agree with him.

@PoorYorick
Your solution is for all other women to make the same choice as you. And that's the kind of feminism that needs to shut up and get back in the kitchen

Firstly, that is not my solution and I have said so repeatedly.

Your comment on feminism is misogynistic and ignorant and displays much about your attitudes towards other women and debate in general.

I changed my name upon marriage as my old surname is not pretty (my primary school teacher even teased me about it!) Had it been pretty (i always think Ackroyd is a great name!) I would have double barreled.

Now i have DS i wouldnt want to have a different one to him. Not sure what i would do if i had subsequent kids with a new partner.

Also i have to admit i am quite old fashioned!

Given that men can easily change their names by deed poll for about £15, I can’t see that changing the law would make a huge amount of difference to the number of men taking their wife’s name on marriage.

I would like to have chosen a new family name on marriage (like two of my friends who merged theirs) but it wasn’t really an option for us.

More thoughts against changing the law:

In France you keep the same legal name from the day you are born until the day you die. If you marry you have the right to adopt your spouse’s name for general use (and if you divorce you must stop using it unless they give you permission to carry on doing so) but for all official purposes you are still known by your birth name.

Men can adopt their wife’s surname just as easily as women can adopt their husband’s surname. But in practice, they don’t. (I know of one who has, and it’s a talking point.)

So the issue is certainly cultural, not legal.