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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think you can be an animal lover and eat meat?

566 replies

MyOtherUsernameisaPun · 08/05/2018 13:47

I know I'm going to be flamed, have donned protective gear...

But I think that it's hypocritical to eat meat and claim to be an animal lover. That isn't to say meat eaters don't deeply love their pets - I fully accept that they do! But I think that in those cases they only love certain animals, not animals generally.

We know that pigs are far more intelligent than dogs. We know that cows form close social bonds with specific individuals within the herd. We know enough to confidently state that there is no reason to separate pets from any other species except that we are conventionally accustomed to doing so.

I think everyone is free to make their own choices and whether or not I approve of them is totally irrelevant. But I don't think there is any logical grounds for a meat eater to claim that they are an animal lover when they're happy for some kinds of animals to suffer and be killed.

OP posts:
Lweji · 14/05/2018 15:36

So, if dairy cows are 1.897 million in the UK, and 40103 are factory farmed, it means just over 2% of all dairy cows are factory farmed.

dairy.ahdb.org.uk/market-information/processing-trade/#.WvmcZKQvzIU

DiplomaticDecorum · 14/05/2018 16:47

What actually is 'factory farmed`? Other than a tabloid press term?

Scrowy · 14/05/2018 17:21

For chickens it's ones that are classed as 'barn' rather than free range. There isn't actually much of a difference between the two but free range chickens tend to have access to outside (they generally choose to stay inside though for some reason Hmm) and a bit more space. I think it's the sheer volume that they can be produced in that gives them the 'factory' label.

For pigs I imagine that again it's that they are housed in large volumes inside on 'slats' (basically concrete with holes in it to let the waste drain away) and reared intensively with little access to outside space.

There's been a slight trend in dairy farming to go down what is called a 'zero grazing' route. Basically the dairy cows are housed all year round (most cattle are housed inside over winter anyway for welfare reasons) but for dairy cows this is extended through summer as well so that diet etc can be carefully controlled to maximise milk yields. Most people, who have gone down this route have also invested in robotic milking where basically the cows walk themselves in to a rotating milking parlour and they are then milked by very clever robotic arms. Again, it's usually the sheer volume of some of these 'units' that gives it the name 'factory farming' rather than the actual methods used.

I believed there is some controversy around certain methods in dairy industry around artificial insemination and the use of 'rape racks'. AI is no more stressful for a cow than being inseminated the natural way by a bull (and actually is far less risky for both the cow and the bull, it's not unheard of for either bulls or cows to break legs during bulling!) Dairy cows have also been bred to not be particularly maternal and generally have calves taken away from them very early on to prevent bonding. The calves are then reared by humans, some male dairy calves are shot at birth as there is no market for them unless people start eating high welfare veal, most male calves do go for beef production. Artificially inseminating dairy cows with 'sexed semen' to increase the likelihood of getting a female calf is also increasingly common.

To be honest I don't know whether the people who own the mega chicken/dairy/pig units would consider themselves farmers these days or if they are just business people. Certainly they operate on such a scale that it's not what most family farmers (the vast majority of meat producers still in the UK) would recognise as farming.

Either way though if people want to continue to consume meat and don't want 'factory farming' to become the norm then they need to put their money where their mouth is and demand high welfare meat and be prepared to pay a fair price for it in the shops.

If everyone went vegetarian it genuinely wouldn't bother me, I would find that far preferable to the current situation where people want high welfare meat but aren't prepared to pay for it and which allows factory farming to become the only way the demand for cheap meat can be met.

European Farming subsidies that basically top up the incomes of current family farms and allow them to produce high welfare meat at prices the public are prepared to pay are set to end in 2021/22 with Brexit so it will be interesting to see what happens to UK meat production then.

OCSock · 14/05/2018 17:47

Thank heavens for Scrowy and the voice of reason, who can also re-calculate the misleading statistics used by CIWF! Lots of farms around here, and little of it arable. Great butchers, too, buying local meat and stating on boards the breed and the farmers' names. Humanely reared animals, living in good conditions produce high-quality meat for sale in top London food halls, as well as your local supermarket. I would never buy intensively reared chickens because they don't taste as good.

ohcecelia · 14/05/2018 20:49

How hilarious that someone gobbing off calling people fuckwits thinks we'd be bombarded with animals overpopulating everywhere, when these animals are forcibly bred and artificially inseminated.

ohcecelia · 14/05/2018 20:54

Scrowy - free range eggs generally stay inside because there's still usually thousands of chickens in each barn, so it's highly unlikely they'll be able to get outside with the sheer volume of chickens in there. So the difference is tiny between free range and caged eggs.

Hens usually still have the ends of their beaks cut off without anaesthesia, and male chicks are still macerated and gassed to death.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/30/free-range-eggs-con-ethical

Pebblespony · 14/05/2018 21:00

We have ex free range hens and ex battery hens. The free range ones were in better condition but not by much.

Scrowy · 14/05/2018 21:29

Well yes, I don't think I've ever disputed anything to do with welfare standards regarding poultry production so not sure why you are picking that ohcecelia, if anything it's the one thing we agree on.

I've merely commented that I think it's pretty hypocritical of vegetarians to not eat meat on welfare grounds but happily consume eggs. Free range or otherwise.

As I've said repeatedly have no issues whatsoever with anyone's personal dietary choices, providing they don't try and influence others using flawed logic and outright lies about the farming industry.

ohcecelia · 14/05/2018 21:50

Scrowy - I agree with you on that one, although it's sometimes that they're blissfully unaware, I know I was for several years as a vegetarian before I went vegan. Sometimes this "happy egg" image the industry tries to portray is a strong one.

Curiousmoi · 14/05/2018 22:48

Scrowy
Ii agree, I think it is hypocritical to be vegetarian and claim to care about animals welfare whilst still using animals for the excretions, especially milk.
The dairy industry is far worse.

I'm just confused as I can't find many comments of yours that state vegetarians are hypocrites for eating eggs.
If that was your point all along, I would have agreed with you from the start, but I don't think that was the point you were trying to get at.
Instead, your approach seemed to revolve around attacking vegans for accidentally killing ants and mice, whilst trying to justify killing animals.....

Scrowy · 14/05/2018 23:10

I think you must have mixed me up with other posters curious

No ants or mice were harmed in the writing of any of my posts.

Lweji · 15/05/2018 01:27

It's not accidental killing of mice if you use mechanical harvest methods that you know will kill mice.
Your non-hypocritical option would be to put your money where your mouth is and only buy hand picked vegetables and grain.

Can you picture the terror that those poor mice feel as the combine harvester approaches?
You heartless vegan people.

Curiousmoi · 15/05/2018 09:39

@Lweji
I'm a big fab of jokes, thanks for making me laugh this morning Thanks

Tryagaintomorrow · 15/05/2018 10:06

It really annoys me when vegans have pets, especially ones in cages like rabbits etc.

If you’re so pro animal, then don’t be locking them up like us meat eaters Grin

Pebblespony · 15/05/2018 17:59

Some people are vegan for health reasons, not ethical reasons.

Pebblespony · 15/05/2018 18:00

Not many though.

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