To think you can be an animal lover and eat meat?

[MyOtherUsernameisaPun]

I know I'm going to be flamed, have donned protective gear...

But I think that it's hypocritical to eat meat and claim to be an animal lover. That isn't to say meat eaters don't deeply love their pets - I fully accept that they do! But I think that in those cases they only love certain animals, not animals generally.

We know that pigs are far more intelligent than dogs. We know that cows form close social bonds with specific individuals within the herd. We know enough to confidently state that there is no reason to separate pets from any other species except that we are conventionally accustomed to doing so.

I think everyone is free to make their own choices and whether or not I approve of them is totally irrelevant. But I don't think there is any logical grounds for a meat eater to claim that they are an animal lover when they're happy for some kinds of animals to suffer and be killed.

Well, my point is that you can't be an animal lover and eat them. There's always going to be random examples, most of my friends are vegetarian and vegan and they would never leave an injured animal to suffer. I've saved birds when I've been with meat eaters before and they were all too grossed out to help them - so there's examples either way.

Well, my point is that you can't be an animal lover and eat them

Well, you're wrong.

Eating meat is a far more difficult diet to follow than a vegetarian/vegan one. How can people not see this?

We can't see it because we don't find it to be true. How do you not follow?

"All those things you mentioned, everything is available in a plant based diet"

(1) Not all are available from plants.

(2) Not all in one place, like in a small piece of meat.

(2) Not highly bioavailable like in meat and other animal products.

ohcecelia 36 hours? That has to be bullshit. How would gaining milk from the cow be possible if all the calf’s are taken away after 36 hours? I don’t claim for one minute to know how it all works but surely not after only 36 hours.

@Badcat666
"and don't get me started on the water shortage in California"
Umm... have you even done ANY research on the issue?
Also, do you really believe vegans are the reason for the production of almonds? Do meat eaters not eat a side of almonds along side animal flesh?
Here's why there's a water shortage...

uk.businessinsider.com/real-villain-in-the-california-drought-isnt-almonds--its-red-meat-2015-4

@Lweji
I didn't answer your question about mice and insects because I genuinely thought you knew the definition of veganism

"Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude as far as possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any of purposes".

I care about the mice and insects being harmed in the process of growing vegetables, but it is not possible for me to put a stop to this, I am not consciously making the decision to harm these insects.
You ARE choosing to harm animals, no one is forcing you to eat them and you can put a stop to it.
It's a choice that affects others, this stops it from being a personal choice as you are inflicting it upon others, that did not want to be exploited, separated from their loved ones and killed.

@Scrowy
You can "respectfully disagree" all you like, but you're still wrong.
Here's three articles that all state meat production uses far more water than soy/vegetables.

https://research.utwente.nl/en/publications/the-water-footprint-of-soy-milk-and-soy-burger-and-equivalent-ani

http://waterfootprint.org/en/water-footprint/product-water-footprint/water-footprint-crop-and-animal-products/

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/environment/why-tofu-consumption-is-not-responsible-for-soy-related-deforestation/

@Scrowy @derxa

But let me guess, you'll get two minutes into this video, if that, because you won't allow yourself to see the torture you are putting animals through, as then you might have to actually open your eyes and show some empathy towards animals instead of killing and eating them.
And once you have watched the short snippet you will STILL say the UK has high welfare standards, yes, all farms filmed are in the UK.
I cry every time I show someone this short film, and everyone I know who has watched showed the same emotions.
If you don't find this difficult to watch, I would seriously question your sense of care and empathy towards any living beings. I genuinely feel concerned about people who feel nothing when watching real footage from within a farm or abattoir.

I care about the mice and insects being harmed in the process of growing vegetables, but it is not possible for me to put a stop to this, I am not consciously making the decision to harm these insects.

Only because you're not harvesting or destroying their natural habitat directly. But you're still a direct cause of their death and suffering because you're using the products and you're aware of what it takes to produce them. You make a conscious decision to ignore the suffering. Just as meat eaters.

You should be going to nature and gather naturally occurring plants to be on the safe side.

You're making a decision on what harm to animals is acceptable for you, just as meat eaters are. You just choose to ignore harm to smaller animals and that you can't see suffering directly. But the harm you're doing is equivalent.
Mice and rats are pretty sentient. Possibly just or more sentient than a cow. But their deaths are acceptable.

As transporting grain across the globe is acceptable in terms of CO2 footprint but not cows in a field.

As keeping horses and riding them, or keeping animals in houses and neutering them, is perfectly acceptable and loving, but not having sheep that are eventually slaughtered at the end of a sheltered life.

But meat eaters are the hypocrites. Really?

Lweji
You're missing the point entirely.
It's impossible to grow some vegetables without harming insects, even without killing them. Slugs are always going to eat growing lettuce, and other insects are always going to live where veg is growing, too.
So no, it's not actually possible to not harm insects all the time, therefore I'm still vegan and doing the best I can, and that's the difference, I'm doing the absolute best I can and I'm afraid I'm not perfect, but you're not doing ANYTHING to try to exclude animals from pain and suffering.

Something that hasn't been mentioned here, is that bulls are deemed useless to the dairy industry, so they are either killed on site or sold to someone else for veel, this happens to 21,000,000 bulls globally. The female cows live for only 5 years before being killed for meat. During the time they are alive, they are repeatedly being impregnated right after giving birth so they can continue to produce milk, this milk is being produced up to 12 times the natural rate that they would feed their babies. (Their babies that were ripped away from them... 97% of newborn dairy cows are forcefully ripped away from their mothers within 24 hours of birth).

The lifespan for a cow is 18-22 years.
So when you say you care about animals yet you eat them, you're a hypocrite and a liar.
You are allowing them to have under a quarter of their natural lifespan purely because you would like a burger. You cannot care about a species whilst repeatedly killing them just because you have decided you want some meat.

You're missing the point entirely.
It's impossible to grow some vegetables without harming insects, even without killing them.

No. That WAS my point.

And the other point was that you don't care how many animals are hurt in the process of vegetable / grain production.

Lweji

Sure, let's not torture animals but I don't see repeated pregnancies, milk production, and an early demise as torture.

That's sort of the life of a female animal in the wild, FYI. Have you ever observed stray cats? Pregnant every season, kittens at their side for only a short while, and dead for one reason or another (and in a ghastlier way than with a stun gun) far sooner than what you would consider old age for a domestic cat.

That was the case even for humans until the last 100 years or so. My great-grandmother gave birth 8 times in 10 years and was dead in her 40s. In previous centuries, most women were married off in their early teens and spent their short lives pregnant, breastfeeding, and quite often loosing their babies to disease and violence.

Your expectation that animals should live in a way that humans have only managed to obtain in the last century or so is woefully misplaced.

www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/mar/26/dairy-dirty-secret-its-still-cheaper-to-kill-male-calves-than-to-rear-them
This is a fairer article from the Guardian. When my father was dairy farming (he retired in the early 90s) no male calves were shot. He raised them as bullocks. But now the supermarket milk prices have forced this situation. Farmers are looking for solutions such as sexed semen and raising male calves for rose veal. Ultimately this is all consumer driven. People want cheap milk and don't want to eat veal because they think calves are raised in crates.
I could write screeds on this. Especially on the amount of pets in this country who live very unnatural lives.

But let me guess, you'll get two minutes into this video, if that, because you won't allow yourself to see the torture you are putting animals through, as then you might have to actually open your eyes and show some empathy towards animals instead of killing and eating them.
And once you have watched the short snippet you will STILL say the UK has high welfare standards, yes, all farms filmed are in the UK.
I cry every time I show someone this short film, and everyone I know who has watched showed the same emotions.
If you don't find this difficult to watch, I would seriously question your sense of care and empathy towards any living beings. I genuinely feel concerned about people who feel nothing when watching real footage from within a farm or abattoir. You're wrong. I've watched it now and I've watched it before. Of course it's shocking.

I adore rabbits but dont have any qualms making a rabbit pie.
I have to add that the rabbit arrives from the butchers not looking like a rabbit, if you get my drift,
I love meat,,especially veal and venison.

What I do find hypocritical is vegetarians who eat faux sausages and soy products that resemble meat,,

Curiousmoi Taken within 24 hours? I don’t believe that at all.

@sweetpea55 I’m a veggie and I love quorn sausages and burgers. Nothing hypocritical at all. I love the taste and texture of meat, I just don’t like the cruelty behind it. I don’t think you can adore rabbits that much?

Do plant lovers eat plants?

Frenchiemamax...Apologies. (flowers)

I do really like rabbits but I can disassociate the meat from the fluffy animal..
I like soy too,,its good for the symptoms of menopause,

Frenchiemamax

@BartholinsSister
Umm, yes?
How's that related to killing a living being?