To think you can be an animal lover and eat meat?

[MyOtherUsernameisaPun]

I know I'm going to be flamed, have donned protective gear...

But I think that it's hypocritical to eat meat and claim to be an animal lover. That isn't to say meat eaters don't deeply love their pets - I fully accept that they do! But I think that in those cases they only love certain animals, not animals generally.

We know that pigs are far more intelligent than dogs. We know that cows form close social bonds with specific individuals within the herd. We know enough to confidently state that there is no reason to separate pets from any other species except that we are conventionally accustomed to doing so.

I think everyone is free to make their own choices and whether or not I approve of them is totally irrelevant. But I don't think there is any logical grounds for a meat eater to claim that they are an animal lover when they're happy for some kinds of animals to suffer and be killed.

How's that related to killing a living being?

In the sense that plants are living beings. Wild guess.

Here's a cow welfare website that confirms calves are removed from their mothers after 24 hours because apparently that's what's best for them! Not being able to live their lives out with each other www.countrysideonline.co.uk/home/our-rural-wisdom/rural-wisdom/the-british-dairy-industry-frequently-asked-questions/

This is a cow crying out for her baby. They do a high pitched cry because she can't smell her so thinks she's far away :

Plants aren't sentient beings though, they don't have a central nervous system or feel pain. Being able to reach to their environment isn't the same thing.

*react

If more people concentrated on getting the conditions of slaughter raised etc rather than going down the all meat eaters are evil line then more animals would benefit. There is a vast difference between an animal raised and killed well & something neglected and mistreated. I've worked in animal welfare & have seen it first hand.

Plants aren't sentient beings though, they don't have a central nervous system or feel pain

That's not the poor plants' fault.

Plus, it's wrong to think of animals as having the same emotions as people. They feel pain etc but are not affected emotionally as much. It's wrong to mistreat them, certainly, but putting human emotions on an animal isn't correct.

Calves aren't left with dairy cows. Current recommendations are for calf to be removed immediately and colostrum to be given by farmer.

I did not know that regarding the calf’s. That’s upsetting actually.

Plants can react to danger. They have been known to send trigger warnings to other plants in their area, this is also known in fungi who respond by sending signals through their systems... They know you are there, they know when they are being eaten.

So they may not be sentient in what you would view in human terms but there is research out there that they can touch, sense and I believe smell. Who knows they could also feel pain that we don't know about because they are a different biological make up to us.

So next time you eat a baby carrot it could have been screaming when plucked from the earth.

The longer they are left with the cow, the harder it is. They are going anyway and it seems to cause less difficulty if done immediately. Less bonding I suppose.

Honestly, I can understand people eating meat. Whilst I don't agree with it personally, I can understand people who try to reduce their meat consumption, buy from high welfare farms and have just eaten meat all their lives. Some practices I really don't agree with, such as farrowing pens for pigs when they have babies - they can't turn around and are in them for 28 days whilst the litter gets bigger. They disguise this as welfare so that none of the babies get crushed, but its just about profit. Also, all of the RSPCA and farm standards you have to adhere to, there's none for when those animals are being transported to a slaughterhouse, so theyre packed into trucks for up to 24 hours with no food, no water and all pretty terrified (from the animals I've seen in the vigils I've been to).

Male chicks are killed before they're even a day old because they're of no use to the egg industry - in this country they're gassed or macerated, and that's the RSPCA standards. I just think that's disgusting. Cows bond with their babies from birth - they carry for 9 months just like us, could you imagine having your child torn away from you within a day or two? And that's a cycle that just repeated over and over until the cow gives up because she's modified to produce ridiculous amounts of milk that her body can't handle. When there's so many nice milk, cheese, yoghurt and ice cream options out there that are vegan, I don't see why we're still doing this.

Because people like meat and dairy, and farmers and food processers and shareholders like profit. That's why.

Plants aren't sentient beings though, they don't have a central nervous system or feel pain

Again, and even ignoring how plants perceive their outside world, how sentient does a living being need to be for vegans to care? Or is it a matter of size?
While cows seem to be out of limits, rodents aren't given the same consideration at all. I've never seen vegans pushing for delicate farming practices that ensure sufficient quality of life for rodents and other small animals. All of which with nervous systems.

It's interesting that you're able to say that harm to rodents is a lesser evil so that you can eat grain at lesser cost, but meat eaters are murderers.

Why not push for hand harvested grain and cereal, for example? And pay the difference?

Erm, I literally never mentioned that its a lesser evil for me to have a cheap product - I was talking about it in a way that I highly doubt farmers of grain would even consider hand picking grains, because the time taken and therefore extra cost would be ridiculous. I mean, I'm willing to look into it, but I wouldn't think it'd even exist.

Also, as mentioned, the definition of veganism is to cause at least pain and suffering AS POSSIBLE to animals. It's quite easy for me to cut meat and dairy out of my life without much impact.

They need to be fully sentient. A plant is not. And if you're so bothered, livestock eat a great deal more plants than I do, so you're killing more rodents, insects and farmlife than me!

@ohcecelia

Exactly!
How has this thread turned on to vegans when it's about meat eaters and their actions...?
We're doing our best, meat eaters aren't trying in the slightest to reduce the suffering of animals.

@curious

Meh, I'm used to it by now - I haven't eaten meat in 16 years. Luckily most people will applaud you and have a healthy discussion with you. Unfortunately there's always some who will try everything to deflect it back onto veganism instead of looking at their own actions. The "plants feel pain" one is the most pathetic thing I've ever heard.

ohcecelia Why do you expect an applause? That itself is quite odd.

Sorry, where did I say I expect it? I said luckily, and I meant it's fortunate that it usually causes a positive reaction and a good discussion with people rather than 'but bacon/but plants have feelings too!!!' over and over.

@Lweji
I'd be interested to know whether or not you support trophy hunting or hunting of any animals such as lions, giraffes, zebras and bears...?
If so, that's deeply upsetting.
If you don't, then you have clearly drawn an arbitrary line between animals worthy of not being killed that you value more, and animals worth nothing but being your dinner as you can't be bothered to buy the veggie option and put animals right to life before your taste buds, (Even though veggie burgers taste much, much better imo, and, bonus, they don't bleed!).

Even though veggie burgers taste much, much better imo, and, bonus, they don't bleed!

Veggie burgers taste like shit. You must’ve seen some strange beef burgers that bleed!

While cows seem to be out of limits, rodents aren't given the same consideration at all. I've never seen vegans pushing for delicate farming practices that ensure sufficient quality of life for rodents and other small animals. All of which with nervous systems.

Ok, but who is farming rodents and other small mammals?!

Vegans aren't out to ensure every animal in the world doesn't ever suffer or get killed by another animal etc. They're just out to ensure - as far as possible, which might not be 100% - that animals aren't hurt or killed deliberately by humans to fulfil human needs. Vegans understand that wild animals eat each other and get sick and are killed in accidents etc. They aren't trying to change the fundamentals of nature. They're just choosing not to participate in cruelty against animals themselves.

How has this thread turned on to vegans when it's about meat eaters and their actions...?

Because of the premiss that you can't eat meat and be an animal lover.

My question in return is how can you use mass produced plants and be an animal lover?

And, completely bypassed, how can you have pets and ride horses and be an animal lover?

The OP said the people who eat animals can't be animal lovers because they don't love all animals.
I'm saying her argument also applies to vegetarians and even vegans, as well as her for keeping and riding horses.

I don't claim any higher morals, the OP and many non-meat eaters have on this thread. I'm just trying to show their hypocrisy.

Don't eat meat for whatever reasons.
I'm happy to support you in that decision.
I agree that animal welfare should be important and that all of us should eat less meat for many reasons.
But don't be judgemental of meat eaters, at least not before taking a hard look at the consequences of the food you eat and how you relate to animals. All of them, if you profess to love animals, as per the OP.

Ps- it's worth pointing out here that I'm a biologist, so I'm interested in all life forms, but I've never professed to love any of them as a group.

Even if all the animal lovers gave up meat there would still be a huge industry providing for those that don't love animals.

It's an existential question really.

As a sentinent being, would you choose to exist or never exist? Those are the two options available for animals that are farmed exclusively for meat if the whole world turns vegetarian. Include egg, milk and by-product (hides, leathers, bones) animals in the mix if we extend to world-wide veganism.

I have been a vegan (teenager), a vegetarian (twenties) and an omnivore (thirties/parenthood) and am lucky enough to be able to afford to buy free-range meat and eggs.

I reconcile this because personally, I would rather experience a good but short life (with a quick death) than to have never lived at all. That would be my choice.