To think you can be an animal lover and eat meat?

[MyOtherUsernameisaPun]

I know I'm going to be flamed, have donned protective gear...

But I think that it's hypocritical to eat meat and claim to be an animal lover. That isn't to say meat eaters don't deeply love their pets - I fully accept that they do! But I think that in those cases they only love certain animals, not animals generally.

We know that pigs are far more intelligent than dogs. We know that cows form close social bonds with specific individuals within the herd. We know enough to confidently state that there is no reason to separate pets from any other species except that we are conventionally accustomed to doing so.

I think everyone is free to make their own choices and whether or not I approve of them is totally irrelevant. But I don't think there is any logical grounds for a meat eater to claim that they are an animal lover when they're happy for some kinds of animals to suffer and be killed.

"Animals deserve to live."

I don’t think that humans are more deserving than animals. In fact there are people in this world who I would happily replace with a sea snail.

Which raises another question: where do vegans propose to obtain the amounts of fertiliser required for biological farming?

The human population is way to high, it would, (and should) be massively reduced.

The human population is way to high, it would, (and should) be massively reduced.

Interesting observation. How do you propose to massively reduce the human population? And how fast? Most European (and developed) countries already have a low birth rate, not sufficient to maintain population size.

nature is very harsh. animals in the wild die in vast numbers while very young. farm bred animals have a much better chance of surviving to adulthood than any wild animal. I'm all in favour of humane farming methods, free rang hens etc, but the animals on a farm probably have a much better life than they would if left to the mercy of Old Stepmother Nature.

I'm a vegetarian.

I think responsibly sourcing meat as a consumer can only be good but the issue I have is with slaughterhouses and how the animals are killed. An ethical farmer may still use a slaughterhouse that is less than ideal. I think the animals deserve to be killed quickly and without suffering.

I was a meat eater for 30 years and feel far healthier as a veggie.

Lweji

War, disease, famine. Removing warming stickers off equipment.....

"people need to adopt more of a plant based diet and reduce their meat and dairy intakes for the sake of the environment and the planet. But we're a selfish bunch,"

Of course we are. So are animals. So are fucking plants. Have you ever seen a lion NOT hunt a gazelle because morals? Have you ever seen what happens to a rival plant that tries to grow next to an already rooted one? Ffs wake the fuckity up.

As for what concerns humans & environment, there are numerous Game Theory studies done on this sort of thing. The incremental benefit of one person stopping their use & consumption of a animal products is infinitesimal - 0, for all intents and purposes. On the other hand, the difficulty and potential damage of such a decision for that person is huge.

So... 0 noticeable benefit to self compared to huge potential personal loss. No wonder that only the very ideological, romantic or misinformed (about "benefits") follow vegan lifestyles.

@Kursk
War, disease, famine. Removing warming stickers off equipment.....

So, you're volunteering for self-culling, are you?

Rockandrollwithit - you do realise the diary industry is the meat industry?
Honestly, however people want to eat they will eat, but I am much more likely to eye-roll at vegetarians than meat eaters. If you're going to be veggie, be vegan.

Have you ever seen a lion NOT hunt a gazelle because morals?

Oh for God's sake.

Have you ever seen a lion NOT hunt a gazelle because morals?

Oh for God's sake.

It's a valid point.

Don't eat animals because they are sentient and have feelings.
Animals are allowed to eat other animals because they are not guided by the same morals as we do.

And, actually: "Animals deserve to live."
Why? What have animals that is so special compared with other living beings that make them worthy of living? And clearly only some animals.
Why is your classification of "deserving" better than mine?

It's a valid point

You really need it explaining why lions hunting gazelles isn't the same thing as Sudan going to nandos?!

"Have you ever seen a lion NOT hunt a gazelle because morals?"

Someone needs a basic ethics lesson.

Lweji

Not really self culling, more of luck of the draw

You really need it explaining why lions hunting gazelles isn't the same thing as Sudan going to nandos?!

Well... yes.

First, who's Sudan?
Then, chicken is a perfectly natural choice of food for humans. Eating other animals really isn't a moral issue.

Not really self culling, more of luck of the draw

What are you advocating, then?

If the human population needs to be reduced, how do you suggest we go about it? (although the NRA in the US seem to be doing a great job)

Lweji

Well, for one - Lions can't just pop off to their local Sainsburys where they have an array of food options like us civilised folk. They have to kill the gazelle to, y'know, not die. They don't have lovely Quorn burgers and lentil salads as an option.
We are fortunate to be able to satiate our appetites in cruelty free ways.

Secondly, Lions are obligate carnivores. They would die if they didn't eat meat.
We aren't, and wouldn't.

Still think it's the same? Dear God, I hope for your own sake you don't because you really are coming across as quite dim.

We are fortunate to be able to satiate our appetites in cruelty free ways.

We just disagree that it's cruel. And that only eating meat is cruel to animals.
Although we are not carnivores, eating meat is part of our biology and evolutionary history. We haven't decided to eat meat after evolving only eating vegetables. We don't need to implant canines to eat meat.

Fine, choose not to eat meat, but it doesn't make eating meat wrong or cruel.

Can you guarantee that your vegetable choice is free of any cruelty (as you put it) to animals? (read relevant posts already on this thread)

Dear God, I hope for your own sake you don't because you really are coming across as quite dim.

Your attempt at an insult isn't an argument, you know? As for your so called arguments on this subject... well, let's just say that they shed a very dim light on it.

Your attempt at an insult isn't an argument, you know?

I'm not trying to insult you. I just find it hard to believe that you don't understand the difference between a lion eating for pure survival, and humans eating meat, regardless of how cruel, or not, it is.

I know I'm repeating others but there is absolutely no comparison between a lion eating a gazelle for SURVIVAL and us going down to the shops for steak because we like the taste.

And not cruel?! You must be a seriously disturbed individual to not see footage from slaughterhouses, animals trying to escape, terrified and then killed and thrashing around in pain because stuns aren't effective half the time, and not think it's cruel. I've seen footage of a cow cry out for days for her baby, chasing after it when it's put in a pen and taken away immediately after birth just so we can steal it's milk, thats filled with growth hormones and antibiotics and NOTHING that the human body needs and can't get elsewhere. It is the most cruel industry going in the world.

And you're right, eating meat isn't only cruel to animals - slaughterhouse workers are paid shit, treated badly and more likely to abuse drugs and be involved in crime. Not to mention that the amount of grain we feed to animals would end world hunger if we fed it to people instead. Not to mention the environmental effects and that half of the processed stuff can cause cancer. But yeah, you carry on.

Because it's not all black and white of eating meat wrong and vegetables right. Or amoral vs moral.

You should be comparing chimpanzees eating monkeys vs we eating meat.
Chimpanzees don't need to eat meat, but they do. Is that cruel or wrong?
We have evolved eating meat. It's become part of our biology.

I have asked a few times what makes an animal worthy of consideration vs another who isn't.
Nobody seems to care about the mice and the insects that are harmed in the process of producing vegetables or grain, but some seem to think that eating a chicken is murder. It's baffling. And hypocritical.

I don't think it's wrong at all, but it's an unfortunate consequence of the machinery used to plough crops. Of course I'd rather it didn't happen at all but then I would have very little to actually eat. They aren't going to start handpicking it all because itd take too long.

That's not the same as buying all and every kind of meat and sodding all animals off entirely! Veganism isn't perfect but it's the best way to try and protect animals.

Meat eater and long term rescuer of unwanted furry things and I have no qualms about eating meat. I like it and we were born to eat meat and veg etc.

Luckily in the UK we have very high welfare standards but I would like to see the introduction into law for smaller slaughterhouses or on sight slaughterhouses on farms so animals don't have to travel so far.

The argument that animals take up a lot of resources is a bit tired now especially if you consider that you can have a herd of meat cattle in a field eating the grass and pooing on it (which is a natural fertiliser) and in the next field you can have a crops of veggies which need pesticides and weedkillers and artificial fertilisers. Also the "super foods" fruit and veg that pop up every year means more forest land abroad is dug up to produce these products which in turn pushes up prices to an extent that local people can't even afford their basic food because it's all being shipped abroad.

And don't get me started on the water shortage in California because they use so much of it on Almond trees to keep up with the supply and demand of almond milk.

Also the animal products we don't eat get used in other day to day products (you would be amazed at what can use them for) and a lot of meat animals eat vegetable by products and waste veg products we don't buy or can't/won't eat so they don't get thrown away.

Producers of veg products have to use some way of keeping pests down so the crops don't get eaten [even with organic farming] so whatever you eat some animal may have to get killed so you can eat it.

But then most veg pests aren't cute and fluffy with big soulful eyes so no one gives a flying fig about them. :D

Also - just read up on chimpanzees eating meat. Apparently it makes up for 3% of their diet, they hunt mainly through the dry season and use it politically and to try and attract females.

Again, not the same as humans, a lot of us who consume far too much meat without giving it a second though.

It's not baffling, or hypocritical.
We need to eat to survive. So we should choose the option which causes least destructive, pain and suffering.
If the option is veg or grains (which have killed field mice), or meat (which has killed field mice to make grain to feed the meat, that is then also murdered), then why choose the meat?
I have much more respect for meat eaters who accept what pain and destruction they cause but admit that they put their tastebuds first, than people like you who try to put it weak arguments.