To think you can be an animal lover and eat meat?

[MyOtherUsernameisaPun]

I know I'm going to be flamed, have donned protective gear...

But I think that it's hypocritical to eat meat and claim to be an animal lover. That isn't to say meat eaters don't deeply love their pets - I fully accept that they do! But I think that in those cases they only love certain animals, not animals generally.

We know that pigs are far more intelligent than dogs. We know that cows form close social bonds with specific individuals within the herd. We know enough to confidently state that there is no reason to separate pets from any other species except that we are conventionally accustomed to doing so.

I think everyone is free to make their own choices and whether or not I approve of them is totally irrelevant. But I don't think there is any logical grounds for a meat eater to claim that they are an animal lover when they're happy for some kinds of animals to suffer and be killed.

I once saw a quote which said "if animals had a religion, demons would look like humans" and I think that's chilling and very accurate. What humanity is doing to other species isn't "nature" or "a fact of life" or "the food chain", it's a global horror of massive factory farms and chickens bred to grow so quickly that their legs snap, or sows who spend their lives lying in a pen so small that they can't turn around, gestating litter after litter until they're killed because so many people can't fathom the idea that there are plant-based alternatives to bacon and sausages and they're really very nice.

Almost all meat comes from factory farms and yet everyone claims to buy free range... funny that.

Ingnoring the snark and taking your point literally Laundrypile83, as far as I see it, it's the only way forward. The alternative is a form of animal genocide. If we all ate fake-con then who would keep pigs? Ergo, there would be no pigs. Is that really an improvement?

Almost all meat comes from factory farms

No it doesn't. What a ridiculous statement.

Unless you are talking soley about certain parts of the poultry industry in which case you may have point.

Supply and demand. Buy free-range, leave factory farmed meat on the shelf to be yellow stickered and sold at cost or loss. Money talks. This is how change happens when enough people act.

There are always going to be those who cannot afford free-range and also those who don't care, but if you're in a fortunate position and do care, then you can make a difference.

Scrowy I agree. I live in a rural area, some of my friends are farmers. I sometimes help out a lambing time. These are farms supplying Tesco and supermarkets, not local butchers.
The animals are kept in very good conditions. They graze outside and roam, their diet is closely watched. The animals are stress free. The lambing sheds are clean, sheltered, lots of staff on hand, birthing ewes are treated in a respectful way, given space and attention when needed.
Since seeing these things first hand I can see the attention and care taken of these animals.

LaundryPile I'm genuinely baffled.

When you see sheep and cows in a field do you assume they are decoy animals to fool the public? Or just rare lucky free range ones?

Do you see farm buildings and think 'factory' rather than 'barn'?

Please explain to a poor simple farmer because I'm obviously doing it wrong if all my supermarket bound animals are currently happily grazing in fields?

@Scrowy

I don't believe they are decoy animals there to fool the public.
They are just part of the few farms over the country that don't use factory farming.

In the UK alone we waste the meat equivalent to 110 million farm animals per year, this is worth £2.4 billion (this could end homelessness in the uk 21 times over).
These animals are being fed 1/3 of the worlds cereal harvest, this could feed 3 billion people, that's absolutely crazy considering there are currently one billion people across the world suffering from hunger daily.
We are over producing animals at an increasing rate, and by doing this we are wasting human-edible food that could be going to countries suffering from hunger.
So not only do your food choices affect animals, you're also taking away from individuals suffering from starvation across the world.
We kill over 70 Billion animals a year globally, 26.6% of this meat goes to waste.
The average person will eat over 7,000 animals in their lifetime.
In the US alone, 800 million people could be fed using the grain used to rear livestock. So one country alone could almost end world hunger!!
And no, becoming vegan would not use more land than currently being used to rear livestock, it would require far, far less, as less of the grain would be going to the animal agriculture industry, instead it would be going to countries that actually need food.

Next time you buy meat, think about the consequences.

They are just part of the few farms over the country that don't use factory farming. That's just plain wrong. I drove 30 miles through the countryside the other day. Along the roadside every second field was full of ewes and lambs or beef animals. They were there plain as day eating grass. Why would the farmer keep them inside eating expensive feed when they could be outside eating grass?

In the US alone, 800 million people could be fed using the grain used to rear livestock Ah the good old US statistics. I haven't a clue about farming in the USA. I farm here in Scotland where there is grass and plenty of water to grow it. We make silage to feed animals in the winter.

So not only do your food choices affect animals, you're also taking away from individuals suffering from starvation across the world

That shows a shocking lack of understanding about the causes of starvation where it happens.
There is no lack of food worldwide, and in very poor regions, animals are used as source of food because they can access and digest plants that thrive in harsh environments and would be undigestible by humans.

I'm going to have to step away from this thread.

There's absolutely no point trying to have a sensible discussion with people who hold the belief that there are sheds/factories full of farm animals as standard practice meat production in this country. Or anywhere actually.

I'm sorry that is your belief, I can see why you would think that meat is cruel if that is what you truly believe is happening. I'm sorry that your life and the education system hasn't given you the opportunity to find out that isn't true for yourself.

I really don't mind what people choose to eat, but I really dislike it when outright untruths about the farming industry are perpetuated to justify someone's eating choices.

I genuinely urge you to get yourselves out into the countryside. Use the many many footpaths that cross farmland and through farm yards and take a look for yourselves.

On the 10th of June there is a national event taking place called Open Farm Sunday www.farmsunday.org which gives anyone who wants to go the opportunity to go and have a look round a farm, ask questions etc. I've heard they are usually brilliant.

I've never been so grateful and felt so privileged to have lived my life in the countryside and in farming as I have from reading this thread.

As an ex-vegan myself, I think the concerns voiced here centre around the intensive farming of pigs and chickens Scrowy. The milk industry has some horror stories too.

Grass fed animals live a natural life as a rule. Yes, they are housed in barns over winter but, in this case, a warm barn is preferable to shivering around a hay bale in a freezing field.

I do support campaigns to improve welfare for intensively farmed animals, and put my money where my mouth is and spend the extra on high welfare, free range pork, chicken and eggs. I'll also settle for outdoor reared pork, and this actually isn't expensive in Waitrose as even their basic (essential) range meets the criteria. I've mentioned this before, but Lidl and Aldi sell free range chickens for less than a fiver.

I do hope that after your post above, nobody here is now confusing the outdoor farming of grass fed animals with the horrors of intensively farmed chicken and pigs.

Scrowy- there will be good farms, but do you personally visit farms where animals are intensively reared? Can you vouch for those farms too?

The consumer cannot always be sure of the provenance of their food.

@derxa
I'd be curious to know whether or not you thought factory farms where visible in the countryside. Did you expect to come across factory farms alongside the road throughout your 30mile journey? Do you not realise they're buildings that aren't situated in the middle of a field along side a road? There are over 1,600 factory farms in the uk and 800 mega farms (these have to consist of at least 125,000 broilers to meet the mega farm definition along with 1,000 cattle).
Believe it or not, they're not all visible in the Scottish countryside.
You traveled 30 miles, this does not mean factory farms don't exist.
That's like making the argument "I ate today, therefore world hunger does not exist". Ignorant.

@Lweji
I'm still interested to hear your response to my question about hunting. :)

Jamie Oliver and Hugh Fearnley Whittingstall have highlighted and widely publicised the plight of intensively farmed animals. Neither are vegetarian and both are very clear on how to guarantee the provenance of the meat you buy.

They promote free range chickens and eggs to ensure your producing bird is not caged, and free range or outdoor reared pork/bacon to beat the cruelty of the sow pens. The produce is clearly marked and readily available. That there is the provenance required to be reassured that the animal you're eating has not suffered during its life.

We'll I've avoided this one for a couple of days due to the title as I thought of course u can fuckwit, yet when I've clicked on it & read OP it turns out they're an even bigger fuckwit than I originally thought-go fucking figure!!
OP if we all stopped eating meat how do you suppose we'd deal with animal reproduction? We can't just let it go on infinitely can we so at some point we'd have to start killing animals just for the fucking sake of it rather than making use of the material available. Is that more acceptable for you?
I am a big advocate of protecting endangered species, not just spouting bollocks on an internet forum-that is going to achieve fuck all. I'm also a well established meat eater & I will make no apologies for that along with giving zero fucks on your opinion that I am a 'hypocrite'.

Oh & just to add, all my meat comes from a local farm where you can walk round & look at all the animals & how they are reared-the DC are fascinated by it.

I'm still interested to hear your response to my question about hunting

I did, indirectly. My point is that we all draw our own, more or less, arbitrary lines on what animals we deem worthy of protection or not.
That nobody, no animal lover of any kind, can love or protect all animals.

Hugh Fernley Whittingstall was the person who alerted us to the fact that badges such as Red Tractor standard mean that the bare minimum is required when it comes to welfare. This may now have changed, thanks to him, but I don’t know how much.

That's like making the argument "I ate today, therefore world hunger does not exist". Ignorant. Charming. I didn't say that factory farms didn't exist. I was just refuting this statement. They are just part of the few farms over the country that don't use factory farming. A statement that is plain wrong.

www.ciwf.org.uk/media/press-releases/2017/07/new-interactive-map-exposes-uk-factory-farming-hotspots
I looked this up and in fact the level of factory farms in my area is very low compared to other areas is very low. I really don't like to be called a liar.

Gosh I know I said I wasn't going to reply but I will make an exception for the link posted by Derxa

How horrifically misleading is that compassion in world farming stuff !?

It initially claims 70% of farm animals are kept on factory farms in the UK.

Then you read on for a bit and it turns out that actually they are claiming 70% of chickens, pigs and dairy cows are 'factory farmed' in the uk, the figures they are bandying around entirely exclude beef and sheep and other types of livestock (presumably because that would bring the percentage right right down so the headlines wouldn't be anywhere near as dramatic)

After a bit of clicking through the site I eventually found the actual stats for how that's broken down between chickens/pigs/dairy per county and overwhelmingly it looks like the chickens that make up the vast majority of the '70%' statistics.

You know, eggs/poultry the part of the farming industry that every single farmer who has commented on the thread has agreed is where there are potentially problems.

Yet many many vegetarians are happy to eat non free range eggs in all the cakes, biscuits, quiches, ready meals indeed almost any processed food that uses eggs etc. But won't eat beef/lamb etc (which in the UK is almost entirely free range) on 'welfare grounds'

Absolutely idiotic, hypocritical, bonkers.

I've now sat down and done the sums (since CIWF don't presumably to try and obscure the fact that what they are claiming is misleading) and its actually even more misleading than I thought!

The '70% of animals in the UK are factory farmed' claim can be broken down as follows:

Sheep - they didn't include this (my guess is because it will be almost 100% free range)

Beef cows - they also didn't include this because again at a guess it will be a high 90s% that they are free range)

Dairy Cows - 40103 are factory farmed (a humongous 0.025% of all factory farmed animals in the UK)

Pigs - 1283068 are factory farmed (0.79% of all factory farmed animals in the UK)

Egg laying hens - 13046413 are factory farmed (8% of all factory farmed animals in the UK)

'Broilers' (your average supermarket chicken, chicken sandwich meat etc) - 148675275 (91.2% of all factory farmed animals in the UK)

So chickens account for 99% of all factory farmed animals in the UK that are included in CIWF's very loose definition of what a farm animal is given they haven't actually included any beef or sheep.

Bit rich to claim from that that '70% of animals in the UK are factory farmed' don't you think?

But I can see how its confusing when organisations deliberately set out to mislead the public to further their own agenda.