To think DD wasn’t unreasonable not to give up reserved seat?

[jasminajasminda]

Dd17 was getting the train from London to Edinburgh yesterday to visit her sister at uni (she’s just finished her internal school year 12 exams, and lessons don’t start again until Wednesday).

We obviously reserved her a seat. She arrived, got on the train, and sat down in her seat. The train was very busy, and a few minutes after the train started moving, a middle aged woman with a walking stick, having apparently wandered through several carriages (dd was in the front carriage) without finding a seat, looked around dd’s Carriage, then came up to her and asked her to move as she needed a seat (pointedly making a big deal of her walking stick). When dd pointed out that she had reserved that seat, and there was no way she was giving up her seat on a four hour train journey, the woman told her that she was young, and therefore didn’t need a seat as much as she did.

At this dd put on her headphones, and listened to music and ignored her. The woman eventually huffed and left the carriage. Dd said that she noticed a few other passengers giving her (dd) dirty looks throughout the journey.

Was dd being unreasonable?

@Otterseat, yes. I believe it would have been common sense for her to have reserved a seat.

But she didn't. My common sense says that she was probably unable to. I don't know why that might be, but I believe that if she could have, she would have.

Why would she want to get on a train without a seat booked? So she can prey on unsuspecting teenagers? That's hardly someone's idea of a fun day out is it.

Leggere
In that case Saltcrust, the lady could have said to the nearest adult "sorry to bother you, I'm feeling quite ill and confused. Would you mind getting me some help, please?" I've done this before, no problem!

Otterseat
We know, for a fact, that individual with the walking-stick was capable of speech - so, perhaps she should have sought the assistance of a member of the train staff regarding the issue of her not having a seat.

Yes she could have told others she needed help, or asked others to go and seek it on her behalf, but in this particular instance she didn't. Others could have actually offered to help without being asked.

Does that justify turning your back on somehow who needs help, ignoring them, plugging yourself in to earphones and pretending the problem doesn't exist?

Sometimes it is better to be kind than to be "right".

jedediah

It wasn't her responsibility to solve the lady's problems and go and find the train staff.

No it wasn't - specifically - but there was no reason why she couldn't have offered to let the lady have the seat "for now" and go and offer to find the guard to sort the issue out.

Let's just hope one single decent person on the train did the right thing and took it upon themselves to help someone who needed assistance. What if she genuinely needed help? What if everyone just turns their back and says "not my responsibility"? Is that really the attitude we want to be teaching our dc?

@Doje
Would you also agree, that, it would be common sense, for the individual with the mobility issue, to request someone/anyone occupying the seats intended for infirm, elderly, disabled, pregnant to vacate one of these, if they didn't meet any of the acceptable criteria, instead of someone/anyone sitting in a reserved seat?

@Otter yes. But again, we don't know why she didn't, or indeed whether she did but the others were more in need than her.

But that's not what the OP's question was. It was 'Was my DD unreasonable' not 'was the middle aged lady unreasonable to ask'.

I do wish we wouldn't put our young women under pressure to subjugate their needs and requirements to those of others - to 'be nice'. This wasn't a crisis that only OP's DD was in a position to help with, it was poor planning by the middle-aged woman, there were other travellers who could volunteer to help if they wanted to and there may, or may not have been other solutions, such as seats for disabled people, which again, other travellers could have helped with if they wanted.

This. Absolutely 100%. OP your daughter was NBU!

amiciss Exactly.

Salt I find your infantilism of those of us with disabilities patronising. I suggest you stop seeing the disability and start seeing the person.

some people may be happy to put other people’s comfort before their own but on a four hour train journey I think it’s reasonable to not want to give up your seat.

Agreed. I’m first out of my seat to help people who need it more (including when I have been pregnant, and I suppose I am now middle aged myself) on journeys into town etc (about 45 mins) but if it’s “selfish” not to want to stand when I have a reserved seat when travelling from one end of the country to the other so be it

*1) Middle aged lady picks on teen bacause she thinks a 17 year girl will most likely be pressured into giving up her seat.

and

2. Lady with walking stick less able to stand than 17 year old girl.*

They’re not mutually exclusive though are they? The lady needed a seat but the reason she asked OP’s daughter was because she was young and assumed she could more readily stand.

Weezol.

You entitled to assess my attitude in any way you wish, but you have absolutely no personal knowledge of my attitude to people with disabilities, or my personal experience in that area, so I will respectfully disregard your suggestion thank you.

And isn't it infantalising/patronising young women to suggest they are not equally capable of getting up and helping in a situation where it is required, just the same as we would expect young men to do so?

How do we know that the lady in question hadn't ask young men as well as young women in various carriages? We do not!

And yes, sometimes it is the right thing to do to "be nice" and subjugate your needs for those of others. It's called "being helpful".

Correction. You are entitled ...

Bakedbeans that's totally understandable, but as has been said many times throughout the thread, the girl would not necessarily have been standing for 4 hrs. I know that route very well and although the train is usually packed at Euston, seats generally become available further down the line.

@amicissmma
Spot on!
@Weezol
10/10
Straight shooting - you don't miss and hit the wall!
@Doje
No - the OP's daughter, sitting in a reserved seat/for a four hour journey, was not unreasonable.

Ok, genuinely interested, if you swap out DD 17yrs for DS, 35yrs old - would your answers be the same?

Bakedbeans that's totally understandable, but as has been said many times throughout the thread, the girl would not necessarily have been standing for 4 hrs. I know that route very well and although the train is usually packed at Euston, seats generally become available further down the line.

But as you said you know the route well and know that. Chances are the OP’s daughter didn’t, and that wouldn’t be unreasonable

@Saltcrust
Regarding your disrespectful, derogatory and patronising term "the girl". That, in itself, speaks volumes.
She's not a girl - she's a young woman. Currently, she can learn to drive, get married (Scotland). After her next birthday - legally drink alcohol, vote etc.etc.
She was under no obligation to vacate her reserved seat/stand for any of that 4 hour journey

Fair enough Bakedbeans!

We obviously have differing views on this and if the girl in question was an inexperienced traveller, then her reactions (apart from rudely plugging herself in to earphones) were understandable to a degree. I still think it would have been kind of her to offer up her seat or go and find help (having suggested that the lady took her seat until she returned) . Generally speaking it is easier for an able bodied 17 yr old to sit on a suitcase or on the floor of train than someone who is middle-aged or who needs a stick to walk. I did it many times in my twenties and early thirties for hours at a time when I lived in London and my parents lived in the North of the UK.

Anyway, this thread is going around in circular arguments now so I am going to leave it there.

Suffice to say, I am not particularly looking forward to getting older or infirm, god forbid having to rely on the kindness of strangers.

Otterseat

OK - I apologise for the term 'girl' if that will help.

At what point does a young girl become a young woman I wonder?

I was merely trying to distinguish clearly between the young woman and the older middle-aged one.

As a previous poster said, people are absolutely fanatical about political correctness nowadays in terms of language (and that is often a very good thing). I wonder if that always translates in to actual direct helpful action?

Your daughter was Not Being Unreasonable. The old woman sounds rude and as if she targeted her because she was young.

I had something similar with an older woman, but she first accused us of sitting on her reserved seat, when I showed our booking, she huffed and puffed and request either DS or I to relinquish a seat to her because she was older.

Honestly, if she had not been so bloody rude, I would have offered my seat but after that, I just said... stuff her... you cannot be so bloody rude to get someone to give you their seat.

@Saltcrust
Gracious of you to make that apology.
I'm not fanatical about political correctness - I do, however, believe in good manners, courtesy and respect. These should reciprocated - in the real world, that doesn't always happen. Given the whole scenario/circumstances of the thread - I still don't believe the young woman was unreasonable.

Well we are on the same page with regard to good manners and courtesy Otterseat

@Saltcrust
We'll just have to agree to disagree on other matters

I would have expected one of my teenagers to offer his/her seat but I agree the woman should have reserved one for herself and shouldn’t have asked your dd. Having said that, I am in my seventies and would offfer my reserved seat to someone who seemed to need it more eg heavily pregnant or unstable on their feet.