To think you're not allowed to be a feminist on MN if you believe in trans rights?

[EyeRollChampion]

Seems like every post in the feminism category atm is so vehemently anti-trans rights and that anyone who disagrees with this standpoint is ganged up on and ridiculed.

Or 'aren't I brave posting the same viewpoint as the overwhelming majority? I will not be silenced! (Now tell me how amazing and inspirational I am)'

I will probably be told I'm not a good feminist for believing we should respect the gender people identify with. Identity is of no importance to equal rights or mental health, of course. And they're a minority so who cares? Because changing room horror.

I'll get flamed for this because apparently this is not a view you're allowed to hold on mumsnet, TRA (aka anyone who isn't against trans rights) are the enemy of all women and trying to deny free speech.

Tell me I'm not alone?

Oh, I just see someone has inferred you are a man OP. Of course they have. Brilliant
That was me and I didn't get an answer on that or a proper answer on my previous question.

Instead I got a dismissive response that as a PP has said dismisses rape victims everywhere.

I expect Eyeroll will reply now and state that she is a woman who just happens to think that it is OK to dismiss rape victims (after all in EyeRoll's words - "it's just a penis") and to favour the rights of one penis owner over all women and girls

You have missed the point subversion of a sex is not a right

I expect Eyeroll will reply now and state that she is a woman who just happens to think that it is OK to dismiss rape victims (after all in EyeRoll's words - "it's just a penis") and to favour the rights of one penis owner over all women and girls

Honestly.

This is such a huge reach, you can only be looking to slap her down, surely?

If you've never met a woman who would agree with the statement, "it's just a penis, not an assault rifle" I really think you need to get out more.

Sure, state your case that you think that's dismissive of rape victims (and others may disagree with you, whatever), but to extrapolate that to mean that the OP dismisses rape, cares more about men than women and girls, is not any kind of woman you know, and therefore is a man - which I assume is to invalidate her opinion and to invite others to dismiss her too - well that a biiiiig stretch. And it shows your true intent.

I am feminist and support Trans rights, I support all LGBTQ rights

" after all in EyeRoll's words - "it's just a penis"

no he said 'willy' in some kind reductive fake baby-speak..

I think majority posting there are not anti trans but they are against what they consider erosion of women's rights. I don't necessarily agree with the fwr majority view on self-id and there's some posts that border on transphobic but on the whole I'd say there aren't many anti-trans posters there.

You aren't alone OP! I haven't read the thread because I guarantee I could predict with almost perfect accuracy the comments you'll have received, but I completely agree with your post.

There are a handful of us on here and although we are the minority it's very heartening to see! I don't know why MN is so virulently anti-trans - it's unlike any other community I've known. But it it gradually changing. I think even in the last few months I'm seeing more and more trans inclusive attitudes. It's a slow and steady battle!

I assume then that you’ve signed the petition which calls for exactly this?

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

I have now.

EyeRoll

"It's just a penis"

I'm not sure you should say that......careful....

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3238618-Trans-Media-Watch-has-written-to-parliament-saying-trans-identified-male-can-be-considered-as-hate-speech-and-that-Mumsnet-users-referring-to-penises-are-being-transphobic

..

SuitedandBooted
Thanks for the link.

One of many things I noticed on there was -

"A person with a Gender Recognition Certificate should never be excluded from a single-sex occupation or service for people of their acquired gender"

I cannot get my head around the implications of this.

For example, a rape victim who goes to counselling after the worst event of her life could be presented with a man as her counsellor and the law would not prevent this.

Persiancatlady - I apologise for the willy/assault rifle comment. In retrospect that was dismissive.

I'm replying as much as I can but do have other things to do today.

I do not have a penis. Nor an assault rifle.

There are some very salient points here that give me cause to review. I'll go through them all more thoroughly when I have time.

I do still feel though that both viewpoints should be respected. Dialogue is what's important and I still think anyone challenging the assertion that self id is bad for women is getting a ton of abuse they don't necessarily deserve.

The 'it's just a penis' argument is disingenuous itself, though. If that's the case, why not argue for all toilets and changing rooms to be mixed sex? They're just penises, it's fine. I disagree with that argument but it is at least a valid argument.

Nobody has ever come up with a coherent reason for having separate areas, but separating by gender rather than sex. What would be the point? Why can't feminine- and masculine-gendered people share space? It's not because of body parts because gender identity isn't about biology, so why?

no he said 'willy' in some kind reductive fake baby-speak.
Yes, he did so I misquoted him.

Still wondering why he hasn't returned to answer the questions on his own thread??

Dialogue is what's important

YY

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/02/can-we-have-an-honest-debate-about-gender/

I thought this was a good peice on the subject and how it's being debated.

'I don't know why MN is so virulently anti-trans - it's unlike any other community'

More anti trans rights activism rather than anti trans. It's unlike any other community because this is one of few places you're allowed to discuss it without people who haven't really given any thought to the issue shouting you down as transphobic.

RatRolyPoly

I agree with you. The rhetoric on FWR is that everyone even slightly pro-trans rights is afraid of debate and no one will debate them. They parrot this endlessly but they're very careful about making sure no one can debate them. That's because if you disagree with their stance on trans rights, you are immediately labelled a "TRA". That means that you are not really interested in debating, you are just being goady. And then you're not really giving your opinion, you're just trying to argue and create drama. So now they can discount everything you are saying. It's amazing, really. The only way to "prove" you are not being goady is to agree with them. Basically the logic of this means that you cannot disagree with them.

By "debate", what they mean is coming in with a soft gender critical position and posting something like "i don't understand all this trans stuff. DAE think it sounds a bit weird?" They then tell you all about how trans women are a huge threat to women and then you half agree. That is classed as "debate". Actually disagreeing is goady. Saying "I think calling trans women men is transphobic" is "goady".

I see they've already began labeling posters on this thread as men. It's "debate" but you're not allowed to disagree.

The two aren't mutually exclusive OP. You can be a feminist and believe in trans rights. I do.

I don't believe in men taking the rights away from women. I don't believe anybody should be able to take another persons rights away.

I havent read the thread yet...just about to

But I believe in human rights for all, whatever race, creed, sexuality, that includes trans people...

So i belive in trans rights and consider myself to be a feminist ( by its basic definition)

And I haven't as yet been told I can't be a feminist

(Plus I'd ignore it anyway...nobody gets to tell me what I believe)

anyone challenging the assertion that self id is bad for women is getting a ton of abuse they don't necessarily deserve.

I don’t want anyone getting abuse for this. But I never see anyone thoughtfully challenging that assertion. I do see a lot of “you’re all transphobic and here’s why” type of arguments. So it’s understandable that the “debate” then gets off on the wrong foot.

Please do come to FWR and start a thread to challenge the assertion that Self ID is bad. I am genuinely very interested in the counter arguments.

Dialogue is incredibly important. But it's a bit tricky when asking questions is considered transphobic. Yes, there are transphobic posters on here. But it's easy to get them deleted and to move on. I am not remotely transphobic. But I have been called transphobic and been. Locked by many people on twitter because I don't think lesbians should have to have sex with male bodies people. I don't believe that transwomen should compete in women's sport. I don't think that women should have to accept intimate or personal care from male bodies people. I don't think that a rape committed by a person with a penis should ever be recorded as a crime committed by a woman. And I don't think it's acceptable ever to have men's and gender neutral loos-as the NUS provided recently. Men's, Women's and Gender Neutral is absolutely fine. All Gender Neutral? Not my first choice, but fine.But Men's and Gender Neutral with no Women's at all? Absolutely not.

I tell you what, you fix the problem of male violence towards women and then we wont need women only spaces and services.

Persiancatlady - I apologise for the willy/assault rifle comment. In retrospect that was dismissive
Thank you, I respect that you have apologised.

Sorry for assuming that you are a man.

I do support transrights in so much as I have no problem with people who have decided to transition (physically) but I just cannot agree with self ID.

I do not believe that it is acceptable for someone to access womens' spaces when they are physically male.

I don't know what the answer is though.

I believe that womens' spaces must be protected and people who self ID as female don't want to use mens' spaces.

Maybe there should be a third space??

I suspect that wouldn't be suitable either.

I will admit that I don't have a DD but it scares the shit out of me that someone like my DS could self ID as female and gain access to the spaces that my friend's 7 year old DD uses.

She is 7 and she recently she has stopped going to the wee at school because they have unisex toilets (attached to her classroom) and she doesn't want the boys to hear her.

Also she hates getting changed for PE in her classroom because the boys are getting changed at the other end of the classroom.

Once she gets into year 3, they have separate M/F toilets and get changed separately which she is pleased about.

I can't imagine how she would feel about using a changing room with self ID'ing females with penises.

If anybody can come up with a solution that makes everybody happy then it would be great.

May I ask why you think that

But I never see anyone thoughtfully challenging that assertion.

Hi NoSquirrels, I believe we've met