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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think you're not allowed to be a feminist on MN if you believe in trans rights?

700 replies

EyeRollChampion · 03/05/2018 10:54

Seems like every post in the feminism category atm is so vehemently anti-trans rights and that anyone who disagrees with this standpoint is ganged up on and ridiculed.

Or 'aren't I brave posting the same viewpoint as the overwhelming majority? I will not be silenced! (Now tell me how amazing and inspirational I am)'

I will probably be told I'm not a good feminist for believing we should respect the gender people identify with. Identity is of no importance to equal rights or mental health, of course. And they're a minority so who cares? Because changing room horror.

I'll get flamed for this because apparently this is not a view you're allowed to hold on mumsnet, TRA (aka anyone who isn't against trans rights) are the enemy of all women and trying to deny free speech.

Tell me I'm not alone?

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 06/05/2018 19:45

And if you are of the opinion (one I've heard here before) that that is insufficient to protect vulnerable women from receiving distressing intimate care from people they feel uncomfortable with, I would urge you to reconsider the solution.

You can "urge" all you want. People disagree with you and are not convinced by you.

I would urge you to consider women's feelings, boundaries and rights and the possibility of these loopholes being abused a bit more than you do. But I doubt you'll listen.

Ereshkigal · 06/05/2018 19:46

And we're not talking gender here, we're talking SEX.

As Rat knows full well.

RatRolyPoly · 06/05/2018 19:57

5) do you think lesbians should have the absolute right to refuse to have sex with another person solely because they have a penis?

For a brief while there was another regular poster who used to air her "trans-inclusive" feminist views on here with me. She was called Stillscreaming. Excellent lady, very outspoken lesbian as it happens, and I usually used to let her take this question. Far more credibility coming from her.

By all means advanced search her posts on the subject - so alongside "lesbian" or "cotton ceiling" perhaps - you'll like her, she's funny.

But as she's not here I'll give you my take.

Everyone has the absolute right to refuse to sleep with anyone for any reason - or no reason at all.

Women, lesbians in particular I hear, experience an absolutely intolerable amount of pressure and coercion to"give up" their sex to others. The specifics of that coercion and who it is exerted by/over do not in any way change that it is wrong, and wholly unacceptable.

The whole of society needs to address the issue of sexual coercion to make it surely unacceptable as drink driving is - I mean I literally can't believe that we are still having to state that as an aspiration, now in 2018 - women and lesbians have been being coerced into sex for bloody donkeys years, long before "the female penis" became a thing!

And it's not okay. No right-minded person thinks it's okay, be them gay, straight, radical feminist or trans. Sexual coercion is not okay.

RatRolyPoly · 06/05/2018 19:58

People disagree with you and are not convinced by you.

I was asked for my answers, I'm giving them. I'm not convinced by you Ereshkigal, doesn't matter does it. More than one point of view out there.

RatRolyPoly · 06/05/2018 20:13

Not got time to answer all the ancillary questions, sorry! It's going to have to be a case "here's my thoughts, take em or leave em" this time around I'm afraid (many will know I do usually love to debate my opinions), but primarily I just want to reply to MillicentF's full list so she has evidence that a considered trans-inclusive feminist perspective does exist!

I'm not asking her or anyone else here to agree with it, it just is what it is.

6) Can you define “woman” without using stereotypes?

Yes I can.

To my own satisfaction.

Perhaps even to yours, but you have to ask yourself, what difference would it make??

Even if you agreed with me that transwomen are women, would that mean you would think they should have unfettered access to women's prisons? Is it just because "they're not women" that you want them out of women's sport?

Because all the various arguments I've read on here, only a very small proportion of people centre the "they're not women" thing in their viewpoints. For most people it's more a question of their biological advantage for example, or their anatomy, or how other women may react to that anatomy, and a whole host of other things that would still pose exactly the same problems even if you did consider them women.

And here's the thing, I think transwomen are women... but I still think there are circumstances whereby they should be treated differently (namely where it is a proportionate means to a legitimate end), so what the hell does it matter arguing the toss over their womanhood anyway?

The crux of the argument is surely in what circumstances one should consider transwomen differently from natal women and in what way that should be done, rather than proving that they are either women and should always be treated as such (which only extremists believe), or that they are simply men and should always be treated so (also which only extremists believe).

MaisyPops · 06/05/2018 20:23

Everyone has theabsolute rightto refuse to sleep withanyonefor any reason - orno reasonat all.
This.

RatRolyPoly · 06/05/2018 20:27

7) Do you agree with the NUS’s decision to have two sorts of loos- Gender Neutral and Men?

Are you referring to this?

www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/01/nus-row-womens-toilets-abolished-trans-conference/amp/

Only just read it; looks like the NUS held a transgender conference and in their own words wanted to make all the toilets gender neutral. But the venue wouldn't allow it (for reasons not given).

So not quite as per your question; are we looking at the same thing?

Assuming we are, I think it's fair for the NUS to want to make ALL loos gender neutral at their transgender conference.

Not knowing why they did it I still think it's dubious of the venue to refuse to enable that as it is affording a perceived benefit to men that is not afforded to women.

8jWhat rights should transpeopke have that they do not at the moment?

If a white person told you they supported black rights, or a man said he supported women's rights, would you ask them what rights they thought those groups should have?

Surely they wouldn't be best placed to identify what rights those oppressed groups would need to give them parity in society?

Similarly I can't really tell you what "rights" transgender people need to give them parity. But I am guided by what their representatives request. And it seems that that is self-ID. Which, after considering all the evidence of months and months on these boards, I support.

RatRolyPoly · 06/05/2018 20:28

Hope that helps @MillicentF, sorry for hogging the thread for everybody else!

I'm hitting the wine.

ReliefOfChaos · 06/05/2018 20:33

Cut to audience giving standing ovation while Land of Hope and Glory plays

Seriously, even if you're not convinced or don't agree with Rat's views those posts were amazing.

EchoGivesNarcissusTheFinger · 06/05/2018 20:37

If trans identifying people have the right to self ID, shouldn't we all? Should all white people have the option to ID as black/brown? Do you agree with Rachel Dolezal's self ID as African American?

Idontdowindows · 06/05/2018 20:38

those posts were amazing.

Yesssss. for a certain value of "amazing", they certainly were.

Mistigri · 06/05/2018 20:50

Yesssss. for a certain value of "amazing", they certainly were

I'm not really sure what this is meant to mean, but it sounds rather mean-spirited, no? Questions were asked; answers given. Some people don't like the answers - that's their right - but its had to argue with the way they have been given (carefully expressed, specific and non-confrontational).

I don't agree with everything that Rat says either - for example I think that the word "woman" has a physical, biological meaning; of course language evolves, but it tends not to evolve in such a way that an entire class of beings with a more-or-less clear cut set of physical characteristics are left without a noun to call their own. But I agree 100% on other issues, especially with regard to consent for medical procedures.

Ereshkigal · 06/05/2018 20:51

Yesssss. for a certain value of "amazing", they certainly were.

Indeed.

drspouse · 06/05/2018 20:51

Rat that was the decision of the NUS group not the venue.
The NUS group could have said "ok can we label one loo GN" as the venue did allow that (the disabled toilet was - wrong thought many people think that is). And had two single sex loos.

They could likely have also (initially at least) labelled the men's toilet "GN" and left the women's alone had they been told "not all the loos can be GN".
Instead, in a public venue, they decided to remove other people's access to the women's toilet.

But what they are saying - both in this and in saying "men [i.e. TIF] are not welcome in future" is that biological women must give way - in the loos, in the conference - to biological men.
I'm not sure that meets my definition of smashing the patriarchy.

EchoGivesNarcissusTheFinger · 06/05/2018 20:52

If a white person told you they supported black rights, or a man said he supported women's rights, would you ask them what rights they thought those groups should have?

Surely they wouldn't be best placed to identify what rights those oppressed groups would need to give them parity in society?

Similarly I can't really tell you what "rights" transgender people need to give them parity. But I am guided by what their representatives request. And it seems that that is self-ID.

Their representatives also request the "cotton ceiling" be broken to give them parity, but you don't seem to agree with that.

A number of transsexuals wrote to the Guardian last week arguing against self ID, as do a couple of transsexual posters on. this forum. Why are their views less representative/valid?

Aridane · 06/05/2018 20:57

Thank you,for your considered responses, Rat

RatRolyPoly · 06/05/2018 20:58

The Trans Steering Group responded by saying: "We weren't able to make all the toilets gender neutral due to some stipulations by the venue."

It added: "We didn’t get to choose which toilets it happened to. We wanted to make both sets of gendered toilets gender neutral, but the venue did not allow it."

Rat that was the decision of the NUS group not the venue.

@drspouse I'm simply going off the article I linked, as quoted above. I know nothing more about this specific situation, but I gave my opinion on the basis of what I could find out in the time.

drspouse · 06/05/2018 21:06

Rat they could instead of having two sets plus a men's, said "no we'll have just one, that's not fair on women".

Then when the venue realised what was happening (women being uncomfortable and complaining and going away) the NUS group could have said "oh dear, back to single sex plus one unisex" but instead they occupied the women's loos and kept changing the sign.

I mean, I know they are only 19, but it's not exactly making them look either grown up or friendly to women.

Ereshkigal · 06/05/2018 21:10

Here's a good video about the NUS conference by transsexual Rose of Dawn the wrong kind of trans

sanluca · 06/05/2018 21:36

Just wanted to say, Rat, thank you for the answers. With some I agree with you, some I feel differently. The one thing that bothers me is that I get this feeling of optimism and trust in it, that if the law changes, only the real transgender people will use it and benefit.
Maybe I am just not trusting enough, maybe I am too pessimistic, maybe I am too used at using risk analysis when working out project details (looking at changing the law as a project if you get my meaning) but my feellings tell me that little to no risk analysis has been done on any of the proposals, that the suggestions put out by the Government and in the Scottish questionaire was too fuzzy, too open for interpretation, too focused on one side of the coin, if I may put it like that.
I am concerned that the law proposals will not look at safeguarding issues with vulnerable women and children as there is no room for doing that without being acccused of being transphobic. And that an awful lot of not very nice men will abuse the new law to get around all the safegaurding we currently have in place.

Weezol · 06/05/2018 21:49

Thank you for your well considered answers Rat, interesting stuff which I shall ponder. We disagree on a few points, however it's important to me to see people speaking from many perspectives, especially those that differ from one's own.

drspouse · 06/05/2018 22:20

Yes I should also say thank you, you took a lot of time and care I can see.

ReluctantCamper · 06/05/2018 22:21

yup, was interested to read Rats answers even if my eyebrows did disappear into my hairline a few times.

thanks for taking the time.

MillicentF · 06/05/2018 22:24

Thank you,Rat. I can't comment on the run as I usually do-it's too important. I'll reply properly tomorrow. But thank you.

AvocadosBeforeMortgages · 07/05/2018 00:26

No idea if you're still about OP (I certainly haven't RTFT) but I agree with you, and also with what Rat has written over the last two pages that I've read

However, as a cisgender feminist woman with trans friends and a trans inclusive viewpoint, I don't normally contribute to trans threads as it's a recipe for being shouted down, told I'm wrong, told that there's no transphobia in a thread full of transphobic posts, and generally being silenced. I've spent far more time in gender clinics than your average cisgender person (supporting someone who transitioned), but of course I know nothing about the subject!