To think you're not allowed to be a feminist on MN if you believe in trans rights?

[EyeRollChampion]

Seems like every post in the feminism category atm is so vehemently anti-trans rights and that anyone who disagrees with this standpoint is ganged up on and ridiculed.

Or 'aren't I brave posting the same viewpoint as the overwhelming majority? I will not be silenced! (Now tell me how amazing and inspirational I am)'

I will probably be told I'm not a good feminist for believing we should respect the gender people identify with. Identity is of no importance to equal rights or mental health, of course. And they're a minority so who cares? Because changing room horror.

I'll get flamed for this because apparently this is not a view you're allowed to hold on mumsnet, TRA (aka anyone who isn't against trans rights) are the enemy of all women and trying to deny free speech.

Tell me I'm not alone?

Eyerollchampion some swimming pools don't have cubicles, they just have communal single sex changing rooms. Do you think women and girls should be able to get changed without men who self identify as women?

The mumsnet feminism board isn't really a place for debate, it's more of an echo chamber

This!!!

Though there was one exeption thread I found very interesting where a number of trans people were posting with calm dignity and there was genuine dialogue on the thread.

EyeRollChampion
Do you have a penis?

Eyeroll in what sense is an adult identifying as a child any more abnormal than an adult identifying as the opposite sex?

It's a willy, not a freaking assault rifle.*

How lovely of you to dismiss every rape victim ever.

I think it's something we need to be discussing as a society to find a solution that means women's rights to safety are not compromised by trans rights to identify in a way they can live with and vice versa

There is the huge problem that this debate isn't happening and few places it does like MN face massive criticism for allow it.

Changes like recent changes in Girl Guide police or Swim UK are happening with no debate and serious and obvious safe guarding problems are being ignored.

It is almost as if someone is posting a thread, then sitting back waiting for one poster out of 50 (or 100s) to say something that can be misconstrued, for it then to be pounced on here or elsewhere as transphobic.

Yes. There does seem to be a lot of this.

I would guess that pretty much 100% of the Spartacuses/Terfs on here are very much in favour of trans rights - all people whether trans or not should be fully able to enjoy all human rights. But there is nothing in this list of human rights that allows anyone the right to dictate that their feelings in their head should not only be allowed to contradict scientific truth, but also that anyone who holds to scientific truth over the belief in someone else's head should be considered as committing a crime.

When someone says that a transwoman is a man they are not saying that therefore that person must conform to male stereotypes.

Trans rights are human rights, women's rights are human rights.

In a truly fair and equal society where there was no discrimination of any kind and everyone was free to wear what they want, and express their personality as they want, the only time you would need to say whether you are a man or a woman would be if you were tactfully checking whether the medical treatment being offered was suitable for your biology or whether the sexual encounter you might be about to embark upon would be likely to result in babies or not. In such a utopian society self-ID would be inappropriate too because the information would only be needed for fact-checking something to do with actual chromosomes.

While we wait out the centuries until this utopia approaches it is OK for oppressed groups to have accommodations, adjustments and dedicated services reserved for them as conscious efforts to redress the imbalance against those oppressed groups. It is utterly inappropriate for anyone not a member of that oppressed group to self-ID into it and thereby benefit from the same accommodations, adjustments and dedicated services.

TRAs are attacking the wrong thing. Tear down the patriarchy and misogynistic culture that makes women-only services and adjustments necessary. Liberate all women and make women's shelters obsolete because domestic violence is a thing of the past. Eradicate chauvinism to the point that no woman would bat an eyelid at needing to deal with the bloody consequences of a period-related mishap in front of male colleagues. Change male cultural attitudes to sex until rape no longer exists. Then women will no longer need to be able to organise to protect themselves and no one will be excluded from anything.

It may be that in years to come, when men as a sex have become less violent and more respectful en masse, that women en masse will be happy to have mixed sex toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards etc.
Maybe that is something our grandchildren will live to see. But until then? Single sex areas, and if people want, a mixed sex area too.

When everyone starts using the mixed sex area out of their own choice we'll know the time has come to remove the single sex ones.

Eyerollchampion

1. Many changing rooms do not have cubicles
2. Many women prefer the privacy and safety of a single sex public toilet.

If you think 1 and 2 are the only issues involved here, you have a very, very limited understanding of Self-ID.

Try this for more info;

sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

And I will ask you, as (8?) PP's have done;

What rights are women taking away from Trans people?

Why is "and here's Mary" worthy of deletion?

But calling us silly immature isn't?

Can you explain what you mean by 'gender', op?

in what sense is an adult identifying as a child any more abnormal than an adult identifying as the opposite sex?

Well, an adult identifying as a child will at least have more knowledge of what it's like to be a child, having once been one...

The mumsnet feminism board isn't really a place for debate, it's more of an echo chamber.

I think this is unfair. I rarely post in FWR but read quite a lot. The debate isn't particularly wide-ranging it is usually more about the nuance of feminist arguments. Much like any other specialist board. Nobody is surprised when people the cat board (can't remember its name, sorry) are discussing cats, so I do wonder why people are surprised when the feminist boards are full of people who are discussing feminist issues.

A lot of it is about trans stuff at the moment but there have been some really interesting discussions on other stuff too which have certainly helped me think things through to a greater extent than I would normally. I particularly remember a recent debate about the limits for abortion and a much older one about prostitution. Of course there was an extent to which most posters agree (it being a specialist board and all) but there was also a fair bit of disagreement about the finer details.

I got deleted the other day. I didn't say anything transphobic. It was my second ever deletion.

My first ever deletion was a few years ago, when I said that Russell Brand was a monster for prank-calling rape crisis helplines. Apparently this is an indefensible viewpoint.

Misogyny rules, it seems.

I'm recognising some Twitter visitors, I think.

Keep things measured, everyone. As a PP said, some posters like to fly in with a goady post, and then screenshot and scream Transphobia

I absolutely believe in the rights of transpeople to work, to live, to socialise - to do whatever they want to within the law unharrassed and unthreatened. And I am a feminist.

you're comparing gender ID with abnormal psychology.

OK so let's get this straight.

Some people who are trans have gender dysphoria/body dysmorphia - they believe that their perfectly healthy body parts are not "really" them. This is currently a mental illness under DSM. So, while "abnormal psychology" is not really a very PC term, I have to agree, it's you that used that specific term. This feeling is clearly very distressing for the individual - the individuals tell us it's distressing - mental distress is the very definition of a mental health issue. Something should be done, psychiatrists are the best people to sort out mental distress. Mental distress is bad for people. I hope we're all agreed that it is not wrong to say that?

Other people (and correct me if I'm wrong) don't think there is anything wrong with their body parts, they just wish to either dress/act as a stereotype of the opposite sex because of their internal beliefs (and you're surprised that women object to this?) OR they want to change nothing about their body, appearance, or behaviour, and yet they want us to believe that internally they are now the opposite sex.

While the last of these three stances is, arguably, more honest, you can understand why people ALSO think this is a bit, well, eccentric is a polite term.

Evidence? There are more holes in most trans threads than your average pin cushion.

This is simply evidence that a post, saying something, was deleted. Tell me about its transphobic content in terms of what it actually says and you might have a point.

You can find transphobic posts on MN. But these are very much in the minority and if you report them chances are they'll be deleted. They are reporting both by trans allies and by gender critical feminists. But the vast majority of posts that remain are in good faith and are discussing problems that could come from allowing self-ID to be enshrined in law. Especially when any such law would be enacted in a hurry in a climate of "burn the witch" for people who are saying that perhaps we should pause and think critically about what it being proposed.

You're not alone EyeRollChampion.

I stumbled into the Feminim section here quite by accident really. That's not to say I didn't consider myself a feminist - I've been a feminist my whole damn life with quite enough life experience to prove it - it just isn't what I had been using MN for in the years before I discovered the board.

So then I stumbled upon it, thought I'd jump in, and within minutes I was a man, a misogynist, a handmaiden, a transmaiden, "throwing women under a bus"; god, you name it, enemy of the people. And all for simply saying that if a transwoman tells me they're a woman I'm rather inclined to believe them. Really gentle "new to the debate" sort of stuff.

I took a little time out at one point to lick my wounds and very strongly considered dropping the "feminist" label from how I saw myself - because believe me, that is not any kind of feminism I've ever seen. We disagree, sure, but we don't tear each other down and chase each other away from the table.

But then I thought fuck-it if I'm letting anyone tell me my 30 odd years of lived feminism count for nothing. So I'm getting stuck in!

I do wish though that the feminism boards did have a more inclusive feel; more inclusive of other feminists that is, and an appreciation that whilst not all feminists agree, they can still be worthy, still appreciated, and still valued contributors to the fight for women - both in this country and abroad.

We have to be able to disagree about trans-issues and still stand shoulder to shoulder on other issues. Which I'm sure most people agree with... just sometimes it doesn't feel like it.

I don't think it's all black and white. I think it's something we need to be discussing as a society to find a solution that means women's rights to safety are not compromised by trans rights to identify in a way they can live with and vice versa.

You know that even saying you want to discuss is makes you a raging transphobe, don't you, @EyeRollChampion? Just wanting to discuss it it is violence (only against TRAs obviously, not normal trans people who have posted on here multiple times and at length to say it this current charge is harming them too).

All we're asking for is the right to be consulted before our language is changed around us.

Oh, I just see someone has inferred you are a man OP. Of course they have. Brilliant.

" simply saying that if a transwoman tells me they're a woman I'm rather inclined to believe them. "

but...but.......

sorry but did you not pay attention in human biology?

Maybe the anti-self-ID posters should all go quiet for a while, until the OP and other people who agree with self-id have had a chance to go through the 'anti' arguments given already and have provided coherent responses (ie reasoned arguments, not just 'because')?

That would help because it would make clear whether or not there are any real arguments, and also would prevent things getting heated (so giving MN Mods less work and hunters for transphobia no misconstrued crumbs).

sorry but did you not pay attention in human biology?

It's a bit more complicated than that isn't it.

But I'm not sure the OP was planning to have that conversation here. I've had it elsewhere on MN. At length. I still hold my view and I can defend it. But I don't plan to instigate a massive derail if that's not welcome with the OP.

apparently this is not a view you're allowed to hold on mumsnet, TRA (aka anyone who isn't against trans rights) are the enemy of all women and trying to deny free speech.

You’re absolutely free to hold any views you wish. As MN is a talk community, however, people will talk & debate whether they agree or not, sometimes robustly.

Tell me I'm not alone?

You’re not alone. The vast vast majority of posters responding to you have said very clearly that they are pro human rights for all, and support trans rights but not where they directly infringe on women’s existing rights. I think trans people should identify how they like. I’m just not sure we should reduce a legal definition of ‘woman’ or ‘man’ down to a tick box anyone can decide for themselves.

I don't think it's all black and white. I think it's something we need to be discussing as a society to find a solution that means women's rights to safety are not compromised by trans rights to identify in a way they can live with and vice versa

I assume then that you’ve signed the petition which calls for exactly this?

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118