To think you're not allowed to be a feminist on MN if you believe in trans rights?

[EyeRollChampion]

Seems like every post in the feminism category atm is so vehemently anti-trans rights and that anyone who disagrees with this standpoint is ganged up on and ridiculed.

Or 'aren't I brave posting the same viewpoint as the overwhelming majority? I will not be silenced! (Now tell me how amazing and inspirational I am)'

I will probably be told I'm not a good feminist for believing we should respect the gender people identify with. Identity is of no importance to equal rights or mental health, of course. And they're a minority so who cares? Because changing room horror.

I'll get flamed for this because apparently this is not a view you're allowed to hold on mumsnet, TRA (aka anyone who isn't against trans rights) are the enemy of all women and trying to deny free speech.

Tell me I'm not alone?

Actually I think you have missed the point. I've not got too much into the trans stuff, or the feminism stuff on mumsnet but from what I have seen the vast majority of posts are about concerns about the erosion of women's rights, rather than being about being 'anti' trans rights.

I've certainly not seen anything that is 'vehemently' anti transrights other than where transrights would replace women's rights.

The overwhelming message appears to be that trans rights are important but that they shouldn't come at the expense of hard fought for women's rights. You can't really blame feminists of any type for arguing to protect women's rights?

I think the whole discussion has turned unnecessarily ugly though and compartmentalised on both sides which is a shame and unhelpful.

The issue is not trans rights but excluding/ignoring biological differences and focusing just on identity a) may put some in danger b) excludes many people that do not have a gender identity (I would not count as a woman for example) and makes it impossible for society/organisation to correct for centuries of discrimination and abuse against women caused not by their identity but by their biology. The need to control women and their sexuality stemmed from men (physically stronger) wanting to know whose child was theirs for example

did you mean to post this IN feminist chat?

no one is against trans rights - it's self ID that many people (including trans people) object to.

that and the hijacking of trans rights by misogynists and men's rights activists

but you would no that if you had read the many many many threads about this subject

What makes you think anyone can "allow" you to be a feminist or not?

Plus what a load of bullshit. I believe in trans rights. Just not the ones that take away womens rights and rewrite biology and reality.

If you support trans rights that trample all over womens rights, you can be that shitty type of feminist all you like.

know!

Noone is against trans rights.

I am most definitely not against trans rights. They deserve as many rights as anyone.

But I also believe in women's rights. Biological women's rights.

Unfortunately one seems to take away from the other. If I then had to pick a side, I'm Team Woman. Biological women.

Anti-Trans isn’t what it’s about.

Pro-women’s rights it’s what it’s about.

Those rights which were fought for and needed. That we need, as women, to be protected from men. Which is why we have sex-segregated spaces.

Anti-trans is a narrative that suits some people to reinforce their narrative.

Those crying ‘anti-trans’ do not generally show much ‘pro-women’ support. Which is odd, as some say they are/wish to be women.

What rights do you want them to have that you think we do not?

for example FGM - the lobby of transactivists that many of us object to would say that this is not a feminst issue as some women don't have a clitoris and by focusing on issue like this we are "othering" transwomen. I say bullshit!

Of course I'm not against protecting women's rights. I do not subscribe, however, to the knee-jerk response that the two are mutually exclusive.

In any case, other than a minority who actually seem willing to discuss the issues like adults, it seems most posters are more into aggressively opposing anyone who would dare to disagree and their posts are full of anti-trans rhetoric.

I'd be interested to hear what rights us mean feminists are taking away from transpeople? Then we can have a proper discussion.

Being a feminist means believing in women's rights, and doing what you can to centre them. It's quite simple really. Saying 'transwomen are women' isn't helpful because some people don't believe that, whether you think that's right or wrong.

Not silenced? Look up the julie bindel on twitter and the watch the footage of the incident at the jam jar last thursday. Male trans rights activists literally blocked women from attending a meeting held to discuss the GRA.

I am not against trans rights. But I believe the GRA and self id is leaving women and children open to abuse, from men claiming to be trans. Many actual trans women believe this too.

YANBU

MN feminism has been taken over by very extreme, obsessed, types. Like the alt-right of feminism. Vile.

What rights do you think trans people should have that they don't have now?

What rights do you want them to have that you think we do not

really good question ...

I don't think you're right.

I see a lot on MN that trans rights shouldn't come at the expense of women's rights.
But I can't see people saying that trans people shouldn't have rights.

e.g. people shouldn't be discriminated in normal jobs because they are trans but where jobs are currently allowed to discriminate on sex, e.g. women can request a female for a smear test, women should continue to be allowed to ask for a biological woman.

e.g. if trans people can make the case for a gender neutral toilet then they should be able to have them but that shouldn't be at the expense of single sex toilets too (or changing rooms)

e.g. girl guides which has transitionally been a single sex organisation, shouldn't have just decided to be 'single gender' without consultation with guiding leaders and guiding members. And certainly shouldn't have a policy whereby biological girls are sharing tents with biological boys without their or their parent's knowledge or consent.

e.g. trans people in sport should recognise that we have single sex sports for a reason - because of biological differences between the sexes, which will not disappear the moment people 'self id' as the opposite gender.

I personally don't think those views are anti-trans-rights, but they are protecting women's rights.

I think most posters who post on this topic are happy for trans people to have their own spaces, and also for medically transitioned people to share spaces, but that people shouldn't be able to 'self id' and then say they should be treated in all cases like a biological woman.

Furthermore I also see a lot of concern that some young people are being encouraged to view themselves as trans when infact they may well be going through the usual confusion of puberty. So people are concerned that harm may be done to young people by the current 'trend' for gender fluidity.

Finally, many posters are saying that sex is a biological fact, and there is no other clear way to define women, given that outward signs (dress, make up, interests) and internal 'feelings' vary so wildly from person to person.

None of that is 'anti-trans'.

I think you have missed the point, yes.

No-one on FWR is against trans rights.

However, there is a group of TRAs (basically MRAs) that is intent on eroding women's rights in the name of trans rights. That is what radical feminists are campaigning against.

No-one wants trans people to be mistreated.

But you can be any sort of feminist you like (assuming you're a woman, that is - I don't believe men can be feminists, only allies).

MN feminism has been taken over by very extreme, obsessed, types. Like the alt-right of feminism. Vile

Nope. I'm a very bog standard wife and mum. I vote Labour and help in a homeless shelter. I have a job, three teenagers. I'm menopausal. I am neither extreme nor obsessed, nor alt-right. Try again.

As long as society has different rules for different sexes there will be a problem. As in sports and women's only areas. That will need to be solved in some way.

You're not alone. I'm an avid feminist but I wholeheartedly agree that people should be able to identify how they choose.

No, nobody is opposed to trans rights. Trans people should have the right to express themselves as they choose, be safe from harm, and not be discriminated against for the way they identify.

There are two issues here:
1)ideologically, many people resist the idea of 'gender' generally, seeing it as a manmade construct that involves the performance and acceptance of stereotypes. When being a woman refers to the behaviour that is manifested, the feelings that are experienced, and the appearance presented, that means that all the gendering feminists reject is actually reinforced.
2) Women's rights matter too. We have a right to spaces for our sex, we have a right to talk about who defines who and what we are, and a right to our name as a class.

*eyeroll" they are not mutually exclusive
for example that view that people should be able to present themselves however they want has been central to most feminism for years

BUT some trans people want to define woman in such a way to exclude most feminists. It is not us that are excluding them - they are excluding us