To think you're not allowed to be a feminist on MN if you believe in trans rights?

[EyeRollChampion]

Seems like every post in the feminism category atm is so vehemently anti-trans rights and that anyone who disagrees with this standpoint is ganged up on and ridiculed.

Or 'aren't I brave posting the same viewpoint as the overwhelming majority? I will not be silenced! (Now tell me how amazing and inspirational I am)'

I will probably be told I'm not a good feminist for believing we should respect the gender people identify with. Identity is of no importance to equal rights or mental health, of course. And they're a minority so who cares? Because changing room horror.

I'll get flamed for this because apparently this is not a view you're allowed to hold on mumsnet, TRA (aka anyone who isn't against trans rights) are the enemy of all women and trying to deny free speech.

Tell me I'm not alone?

@saiya
*The rhetoric on FWR is that everyone even slightly pro-trans rights is afraid of debate and no one will debate them. They parrot this endlessly but they're very careful about making sure no one can debate them. That's because if you disagree with their stance on trans rights, you are immediately labelled a "TRA".^

I don’t recognise this. I am “slightly pro-trans rights” in that I am for rights for all. I am not bothered about calling a trans woman a woman in social circumstances, I am not bothered by trans people at all. Live and let live. But biology is not outdated. And it’s important to recognise this, and talk about why that is. And why that is important is male patterns of violence and female oppression through biology. So then you get to “trans women ARE women” and, respectfully or not, people will disagree with that statement, me included.

I am a feminist who would like to include trans women in my feminism.

But I am not sure I want to include anyone who just “feels” they are a woman in anything legally binding. Because that umbrella is too large.

I tell you what, you fix the problem of male violence towards women and then we wont need women only spaces and services.

Yes please!!

May I ask why you think that
I have no idea why that last line is there.

You have missed the point.

Trans women feel unsafe in changing rooms. Why isn't the solution for men to sort out their changing room situation or a gender neutral space rather than women putting up with adult penis' in their space?

Currently I'm angry at how transphobic is bandied around without a thought. It is not transphobic if a lesbian won't sleep with a trans woman. It is not transphobic to want female prisons/changing rooms/sport to be a penis free zone.

Nobody is anti trans rights. They just want the trans lobby to forge change in the same way that gay people have. If the TRAs wanted an end to bullying, toxic masculinity and more resources plugged into mental health then feminists would be totally supportive. I find it mind boggling that TRA claim to want to be women but are also vicious critics of women. You don't get transmen saying a fraction of the nasty stuff that trans women activists say about women.

@RatRolyPoly

Actually I wrote that and almost added your name as an honourable mention! I did namecheck you to a trans poster the other day as a good poster laying out the counter argument and current position.

I guess what I mean is - no one ever starts a thread to say “I am pro self ID because X,Y,Z” that doesn’t start from a slightly combative premise. I’d like to join in on a thread like that. I don’t like to see people shut up or shut down.

No, FWR as a rule isn’t interested in debate NoSquirrels unless it fits the received wisdom. Debate is actively shut down using well worn phrases. Sealioning. Handmaidens. Penis owners. Mysoginist. We see you. You’re mask is slipping. You’re a man. MRA. Troll. They hate us. The rules of misogyny.

The swarming on posters and expecting them to answer every question. Drowning out their replies till they give up. Robust debate? It’s no debate at all.

It's a real shame that trans issues have become yet another stick to beat feminists with- I suspect there are people involved who don't give a flying fuck about trans issues but who do hate feminists..

I believe the in the right of someone, anyone, to shape their own identity. Some men identify as women and vice versa. Identity is crucial to psychological well-being and I don't think anyone should be denied that. Apparently lots of people do.

No – you are mixing up two different types of rights here.

An identity is a belief about yourself. Everyone, regardless of whether they are trans or not, should have this right – to believe any belief about themselves that like.

But no-one, trans or not, should ever be given the right to insist that other people must believe a belief about themselves too. No-one should ever be given this right – it would be utterly monstrous. Not me, not you, no-one.

It's a bit ironic that the OP has to post in AIBU as being a more gentle option than in Feminism.

NoSquirrels

I'm sorry but I agree with Wisdens that debate is shut down there fast.

The "your mask is slipping" is the newest one. You often get "oh we see what you're really about" and it's like, er yes, I'm disagreeing with you. It's not a conspiracy for someone to disagree with you.

Even on this thread one poster began with the "you must be a man because you disagree" stuff. She immediately started referring to the poster as "him" in several posts. She's only backed down because we're on AIBU. If this were on FWR, there'd be dozens of posters agreeing with her and trying to drown out any other reply.

absolutely, men hate to hear what women think
why do men think they can come on mumsnet and tell us what to do
i know that poster was a man as soon as he started
ugh typical of penis havers to think we shouldn't worry our pretty little heads about our own rights

and so for 20 posts even though the accused "male" poster isn't a man and has done nothing but disagree with you.

Only because FWR's existence is now being threatened is why these threads aren't filled with name calling about handmaidens and TRAs.

Debate is actively shut down using well worn phrases. Sealioning. Handmaidens. Penis owners. Mysoginist. We see you. You’re mask is slipping. You’re a man. MRA. Troll. They hate us. The rules of misogyny.

Sometimes, though, there really ARE threads started to goad and provoke. Sometimes it’s offputting and unjustified, I agree.

The swarming on posters and expecting them to answer every question. Drowning out their replies till they give up. Robust debate? It’s no debate at all.

There is a pretty high “barrier to entry” is what I see - posters are very articulate, very passionate and threads can move quickly. But too often there are no actual counter arguments other than “Be Nice”, which tbh you can’t expect to go down well in a Feminism chat board.

I know why people feel sick of this debate. They’ve heard the stats, they know about the usual suspects and the sex pervs. They still aren’t sure any of that is relevant.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. But it’s a big change in the law that’s being proposed, not just a tiny thing. It’s changing the definition of “woman” and “man”. It shouldn’t happen without debate in Parliament, but people (women) are worried it will.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

Of course you can be, but they are exclusive, trans rights are different to women's rights, as their experiences and issues are different. Transwomen have to campaign for their own rights, and issues as a Transwomen, they are not going to be the same as a biological Female's.

believe the in the right of someone, anyone, to shape their own identity. Some men identify as women and vice versa. Identity is crucial to psychological well-being and I don't think anyone should be denied that. Apparently lots of people do

What does that even mean? Shape their own identity? So a person with a penis is a woman because they say they are?

When you send your 8 YO DD into a female changing room (at swimming) and she tells you that she is scared because a man with a penis is standing naked in there

Are there a lot of trans men going into women's changing rooms flashing at kids then?

I came on to say that I agree with the OP that it feels like there is a lot of anti-trans posts on here. Some of the posts have been informative and helpful and I understand that most just want to stand up for women's rights and ensure they aren't eroded. Quite right too.

But this changing room thing is a nonsense. How many instances are there of men entering a woman's space and violating it??

Also, there should be a concerted effort to reintroduce the word 'sex' as an identifier. I can't remember the last time I was asked what sex I was - gender is uniformly used now and it doesn't make sense!!

It's a bit ironic that the OP has to post in AIBU as being a more gentle option than in Feminism.

When I was hiding from the MN feminism boards I would only join in on trans threads on AIBU... so apparently AIBU's only number 2 in the "robust" rankings these days!

There is a pretty high “barrier to entry” is what I see

Do you think that's right though, NoSquirrels? Genuine question, I don't know what I think. But do you think something as fundamentally applicable to all women everywhere as feminism should have "being especially erudite" as a participation criteria?

I'd like to think the advancement of women everywhere shouldn't only be debated by those with the education, the class background and the personality (i.e. resilience) to clear the hurdle of entry.

Like I say, I don't know what I think really, probably shouldn't be musing on this thread for fear of derailing. Whoops!

Margotmoon agree with you about the word 'sex' being used instead of gender. Thats something I've started doing all the time now.
Re the changing room, well that is the logical conclusion if people are allowed to self identify as the opposite sex. That will give them the legal right to use the facilities of the opposite sex therefore that is a likely scenario.

Ok, I have 5 minutes.

1. No, I am not a man, please stop referring to me as 'he'. It isn't nice to have other people define your gender.
2. I am interested in both sides of the argument. What I see though is the wholesale dismissal of a person's right to identify themselves based on anything but their sex organs and to have others respect that right, rather than a healthy debate where people supposedly interested in human rights and their future in our society listen and attempt to understand each other.
3. Not all posters are guilty of this but a good few are. I appreciate the non-aggressive, considered arguments.
4. I didn't post in feminism because as pps have pointed out, it is rather too much of an echo chamber and I wanted to ask the views of more than just the feminist in-crowd.
5. I am inclined to believe that self-ID is a positive move with the right kind of management. But that's not what this thread is about.

What saiya06 said really sums it up.

Sorry I haven't had time to reply to every question or individual posters - I didn't intend to post and run but I've had stuff come up today that needs dealing with that I unfortunately couldn't foresee. I also didn't anticipate getting so many posts.

But do you think something as fundamentally applicable to all women everywhere as feminism should have "being especially erudite" as a participation criteria?

No! I absolutely DO NOT think that, Rat. Totally the opposite. I only meant that is what I see - that FWR regulars are erudite and articulate their arguments well, and are passionate (as happens on any specialist subject board ... go see how The Doghouse feels about puppies vs rescue dogs etc!).

I’m not sure it’s a conspiracy to put posters off. But it may be off-putting, if you were expecting a more gentle discussion and suddenly you’re knee-deep in theory and a radical perspective.

"But this changing room thing is a nonsense. How many instances are there of men entering a woman's space and violating it??"
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/8130460.stm

I don't know but it sure happens (see above). And how many instances are acceptable? What is the number that would make you think sex segregated spaces are needed after all?
And it is not just about instances of crimes/ voyeurism is it? It's about the fact that any woman might feel vulnerable/ deeply uncomfortable about being naked around a man. I had a colleague who was a rape survivor. At our changing rooms at work we could hear the men in the changing rooms next door. This made her feel nervous and anxious. Imagine how she would feel changing in a cubicle next to a man, or in a communal room with a male bodied person. Or what about the woman whose account I read in Canada who found herself struggling out of a wet swimming costume with a man with an erection in the room with her and chatting to her. This is what happens when as a society we regard man as being able to enter women's changing spaces. Because then any man can enter. Not just genuine transwomen.

I agree we need a debate on this issue OP and it needs to be respectful and measured. That is what Woman's Place UK are asking for.

What I see though is the wholesale dismissal of a person's right to identify themselves based on anything but their sex organs and to have others respect that right

It isn't us that dismisses the "right" of men to identify themselves as women, its biology. It's reality.

Men, or women, who want to change themselves to look, sound and present as the opposite sex have every right to do so, and should have respect as individuals.
What they, and you, do not have the right to do is to insist everyone else agrees you are a woman because you say so, even though you are clearly a man. That is not how reality works. Wishing does not make it so.
That is not transphobia, its just reality.

Come on OP. That last post of yours didn't enter into any debate of the issues with self-ID that people have pointed out at all

It makes it appear that you have no counter-arguments at all!

Rats, I don't think "being especially erudite" should be a participation criterion, no. I think anyone should be able to discuss FWR, ask (non-trolling) questions and have them answered.

I suppose in any debate it's inevitable that people who are more articulate will have an advantage - it is a difficult one. One more area where you have to check your privilege, I guess.

Sometimes I read posts and I think that person A might be more articulate but person B is right.

Are there a lot of trans men going into women's changing rooms flashing at kids then?
I think you are missing the point.

A man with a penis will under the self ID rule be allowed full access to female changing rooms.

MargotMoon

There are always isolated incidents of men in changing rooms, but generally, it is rare, and they can be made to leave. If self -ID is allowed, it won't be so easy, as in "I identify as a woman, so I can be here if I want".

This may be from the DM but it is factually correct. I am a Swim Team manager, and I have seen the document - (saved it on another computer). Swim England have now removed it from their website, but there is no indication that it is being radically rewritten;

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-5357509/Swim-England-guidance-trans-swimmers-slammed.html