to worry I have no choice but to become my MIL around the house

[JammyDodger99]

I will preface this by saying my DP is absolutely wonderful and I love him dearly. We are engaged to be married this year and have been living together under a year.

Again, to preface - our relationship is strong and healthy, and we never fight- our communication is good and if we ever disagree we are good at working things through by talking calmly.

So to the problem... That said, he is pretty hopeless at "practical" tasks including housework and DIY. My MIL raised him in a totally sexist environment where the boys were totally cooked and catered for and the girls looked after the house. She never expected the boys to lift a finger for anything and cleaned up all around them.. (I still see this in evidence when we visit her where her other DS are still at home). Thankfully, DP is intelligent and enlightened and realises this was completely ridiculous (and that we will not raise any future DC in this way)! He doesn't want to perpetuate this inequality in our household or with future DCs and would describe himself as a feminist.

However, his upbringing has left him without skills in this area, and I have had to teach him the very basics, including how to make a cup of tea! Before we met he lived in a rather stereotypical shared house with a load of guys who relied on Deliveroo for everything so he didn't pick up many household skills (FFS).

He is not great at doing things because he doesn't notice when they need doing e.g. doesn't automatically think about the laundry or cleaning the surfaces, and his expectations are generally lower than mine as well e.g. he would be okay about leaving a dirty plate on the side which I wouldn't. I don't want to make excuses but I genuinely don't think he notices half the time.

To his credit, whenever I ask him he immediately helps out, but it doesn't come naturally, and so I worry I will become a nag after years of this. He also needs guidance and can't cook a meal from scratch or even do the laundry without repeated instruction! FFS I know this sounds like a nightmare!!! He is so wonderful though, supportive of me, kind, funny etc and this is the only problem I have with our relationship!

DP and I both work, however he works reeeally long hours leaving at about 8.30 and not usually getting home until 10pm-12miidnight (and sometimes after). He also sometimes has to work through the weekend but not always. My hours are much more normal so I tend to have evenings available. Therefore I obviously do end up with the lion's share of housework / household chores which, on balance, I think is fair enough since I have more time.

When tackling a household chore at the weekend when he is there, I have found myself thinking "it will be easier / quicker to do this myself" but then I feel like I will start doing everything and basically become my MIL. (please no).

When we have discussed this my DP is open and agrees he should contribute fairly and is always very sorry he hasn't been proactive about it. DP says he wants to be reminded but I have said I'm not sure I should have to - not sure if this is realistic. DP's other suggestion is that because he is time poor he would be happy to pay a cleaner to do his share so I do less. (DP earns considerably more than me so could afford it - very lucky I know).

I don't know how I feel about all of this. He is genuinely not a lazy bastard, he works really hard for us both and is super supportive in every other way. Sometimes I watch him when he's doing some task I've asked him to help with, like changing the bedsheets or making a sandwich, and it's clear he really has no clue what he is doing!! If I didn't have to be on the receiving end I would find it hilarious, watching him fumble around bless him. E.g. When I asked him to cook some pasta he put the saucepan on the hob with no water!! Lol! I just assumed he would know how, this but it is tragic!

Again, I don't mean to paint him out the wrong way - he is in fact highly intelligent and in a very responsible job! Lol.

I have a feeling this must be a fairly common issue with men who have been raised in this way. What can I do or how should we both handle this as we embark on married life? Does anyone else have experience of being with a man raised in this way?

Don't even start me on how we will cope if and when babies come along. I am fully aware of how much we will need to support one another so we stay together, and don't crumble under the lack of sleep and hellish hard work of a baby. I guess I am trying to work out how we can move forward to pave the way for this as well.

Any advice from those with a similar experience gratefully received. X

You certainly do OP.
These are issues that can easily be worked on and sorted out.
I've no idea why people think the way they do on this thread, but each to their own.
You love each other.
As I said up thread, he sounds like a decent bloke and you don't just throw that away due to the need to learn about life etc.....

When you have DC, you will be learning together how to cope with it all.
You will both be new to it and you can work through it!

You don't need to justify yourself anymore OP.
You are embarking on a new life with someone you love and who loves you.
You can overcome anything at this early stage and you will do just that!

JammyDodger99, fair enough, you don't want to run for the hills. What we are trying to say is that not being able to make a cup of tea at the ripe age of 25 (even if one gets is once shown how to do it) is a massive red flag. Do you really think that before you came along, he had no opportunity whatsoever to learn to make a cup of tea? Never seen anyone making it. Never wanted one enough himself to just make it. Never had a chance to ask anyone? It's like not knowing how to put socks on. It is very hard to accept that a 25 year old needs to be taught such elementary tasks. And this situation raises massive questions. Like - are you being taken for a ride?

Don't get married until you see the goods delivered. Words are nothing. Actions are everything.

I guess what I am trying to say is that many women in love see themselves as 'the one'. The one who will have the power to change the man. For example, to stop a serial womaniser from having loads of sex with different women. Or the one who will cure a man's addiction to whatever (alcohol, gambling) through the power of her love. Or, indeed, the one who will make a competent adult out of somebody who does not even know how to make a cup of tea. Unfortunately, this rarely works. Because women are not all powerful gods. And in rare cases it does work, a woman truly needs to have a backbone of rocket-grade steel and masses of mental and physical resources.

What about when children come along? Is he going to opt out of changing nappies, making up bottles, sorting childcare and meals, simply because he doesn't know how?

Because nobody knows about raising a child until they have a child. It worries me that he's going to use the "but I don't know!" excuse to get out of things to do with the children in the future. He's saying all the right things, but that's the easy part.

And as for being "taught" how to make a cup of tea or boil pasta - the instructions are right there on the box/packet! The same with using a washing machine - he has a job so presumably he's literate - so what's his excuse?

Lots of people were married with kids at 25 - he's a grown adult, not a teenager who needs a kick up the bum once in a while. I just think he knows if he doesn't bother, you'll do it, just like his mum did it.

Please have a good, long think about committing yourself to someone who is so incapable, that he cannot read the instructions on a packet of pasta.

The reason for the vitriol OP is that we are sick as women of being told things like 'men are no good at x, or y' and 'need training' or that 'men struggle looking after children' yada yada it's nonsense. They are bad at things when it suits them because they prefer not to do it.

But you can see that now and it sounds like DP can as well. He is young, he can sort this and change if he wants to so let's hope he does.

hellsbellsmelons, I don't agree. These are not issues that can be 'easily' worked on. Countless experiences of women here show that this is not the case. Love does not conquer all. Chances are they will not be 'learning together' when babies come along. She will be learning and he will be doing his Important Job outside the house. And only full awareness of this will give the OP a fighting chance of winning this game.

I agree with recent PPs, this has everything to do with the OP's self esteem.

This guy who has lived in shared accom before probably thought he had it made when his bumbling can't-boil-pasta-or-a-teabag act took the OP in

'For those who say a) “he is a lost cause / fuckwit/ loser” and I should walk away now… So are you saying you have never had to work on anything in your relationships? Are you saying both you and your DP are 100% perfect and easy to live with? That there was absolutely no work or adjustments that needed to take place in your marriages? Are you saying you have never accepted or tolerated behavior that was unacceptable, even before you realised the error?'

It's easy to see how much you're hurting OP so I'm going to say harsh things here in as kind a way as possible.

Nobody is 100% perfect - we all make mistakes. However, moving in with your partner and not bothering to learn how to change a sheet isn't a mistake. It's deliberate behaviour based on an underlying belief that 1) he doesn't need to bother with that task and 2) if you want to do it for him, that's not his problem. It reveals a particular attitude, a belief system that isn't compatible with a happy marriage. Enough of us have seen it enough times to know it's true.

best of luck OP.

I think it might help you also to frame it not just Am I to discard all of that on the basis that he has a lot to learn about housework and that we got off on the wrong footing in this area? but also "Is he to discard all that I bring to his life because he won't assume normal adult responsibilities". You do need to change the dynamic - and it should be possible - but the greatest responsibility for the change lies with him.

Do you really suggest it is not even worth taking steps to work on and I just walk away now

I would not say that. But I would caution that this is something HE needs to do. Yes help him once if you want to, but this is all for him to step up and do. Finding yourself in a role where you are the one in charge and he "helps you", where he looks to you for instructions all the time, where you are the house home organiser and he is a satellite around you when he isn't too busy - well it is clear to see here on MN that way madness lies.

You sound so bright and clever and self assured OP. I really hope he steps up and sorts himself out & this all works out for you OP.

I want to talk about the tea/pasta thing OP. You may not realise but that's an actual known tactic that people use (men in particular I find), either consciously or unconsciously to manipulate other people. It's actually very effective - you tell them something 'embarrassing' about yourself 'Oh I don't know how to cook pasta/make tea!' and see what their response is. If they respond by saying 'WTF, grow up!' you know you're on to a loser, this person has the measure of you and you just back down and don't try to manipulate them any more. If the person believes you, and tries to help, you think 'I'm in the money here, if I can convince her I can't boil pasta then I can definitely get away with claiming not to be able to change sheets.'

He really is playing you, whether he's doing it intentionally or not. On some level he feels he's justified in running rings around you get out of doing the things you want him to do, much like a teenager tries to avoid doing things for their mum.

Well Autumn regarding the tea the OP says this:-

He doesn't drink it and never made it for anyone

My best friend doesn't like hot drinks and has never drunk tea in her life.
She's 43 and wouldn't be able to make a decent cup of tea if she tried.
I always make my own if I'm round at hers.
There are many people that don't drink tea or coffee.

OP's DP know how to now and is making her tea!

The thing about most household tasks is, they are generally pretty simple. Cooking is probably the most challenging and even then only if you want it to be.

No adult needs to be shown how to dust, or hoover or empty a bin - they can work it out if they can be bothered.

I taught my sons how to do laundry at the age of 10. Took about 3 lessons - how to sort the clothes, how to use the washer, how to hang stuff out. I guess you could add in a lesson on stain removal but i guess he could use google no?

The best way to teach responsibility is to give it. Make him responsible for the laundry, agree a standard (you will have clean clothes available ever day) then stand back and let him get on with it. Don't remind him, don't rescue him. He'll either get there quickly which shows he's taking this seriously, or he'll flap and fanny around for mummy to come and take over. This will show if he's a keeper or not.

(PS if you try the laundry experiment maybe have a separate bag for delicates so your best stuff isn't accidently wrecked/shrunk. )

When we moved into the house we're currently in, 7 years ago, I said to my DH that I'd cleaned the bathrooms in all our other houses up to that point so it was now his turn, I wouldn't be doing it any more. Weeks went by and he wouldn't do it, then I'd 'nag' and he'd do a really bad job. I eventually snapped and asked why he wasn't doing it. He claimed he didn't know how to clean a bathroom. Naturally I asked why he hadn't learned how to do it, and who did he think taught me or did I happen to do it with the power of my ovaries?

I gave him a 'lesson' on cleaning the bathroom involving a very detailed explanation of what wiping was. I spent a very good long two minutes on explaining wiping in excruciating detail.

Strangely enough he didn't use that tactic again.

I might believe the tea think hellsbells, but the pasta thing? When there are instructions on the packet??? Come on!

hellsbellsmelons, I don't know.... I hate milky tea. And yet I know how to get a bottle of milk out of the fridge and splurge some out into a cup for anyone who wants milk. We are talking about putting a teabag in hot water here. How low can we go? A guinea pig could do it. If it had opposable thumbs.

(bumblingbovine49

I love your card system. And your husband sounds lovely!)

I think people “jumped” to their suggestions because we assumed this was something you’d already tried to address and hadn’t gotten anywhere with. When someone posts about something in their relationship and they are super unhappy, I assume they’ve told their partner before telling us. If that’s not what has happened, it probably should be.

Either way I regret taking the time to post earlier, since we have all been lumped together as vitriolic.

Bear in mind OP that it's not the individual tasks you have to tackle - don't get sucked in to teaching him every little job - he's not an idiot he can do it himself. What you have to tackle is the attitude - the thought process that makes him believe that these household tasks are not his problem. Unless you tackle that attitude then you will be constantly fighting a losing battle - he'll do enough (very badly) to shut you up but he will never take ownership of the work and you will end up constantly nagging and managing him.

Rotas only work for big tasks-a but like cleaners. You need to think about who is going to change the loo roll, empty the dishwasher, wipe down the surfaces after someone's made a cup of tea, notice that you're short of milk, take the bread for lunch out of the freezer, notice that you need more toothpaste, sort the junk mail into the recycling and all the other tiny jobs too small to go on a rota that still need doing. Probably more important than the big Hoover the Whole House, Change All The Beds and Blitz The Bathrooms jobs. Those can all wait a day. Buying milk can't.

Do you really suggest it is not even worth taking steps to work on and I just walk away now? That this otherwise incredible man is basically worth nothing to anyone in this world, that he is nothing better than rubbish to be thrown on the scrap heap?

This comes uncomfortable close to suggesting that you owe him a relationship because he's 'nice'. Saying that you, personally, don't want to go out with someone with a particular issue isn't 'throwing them on the scrap heap'. My ex boyfriend and I split up after two years living together, and one of the reasons was that he didn't pull his weight in various areas, including around the house. He now has a long-term partner, I assume he either stepped up or found someone who didn't care so much about equality. Either way, it wasn't my job to fix him, and nor was my unwillingness to keep living with him consigning him to some sort of 'broken boyfriends' scrapheap.

My 7 yo learnt how to make tea at Brownies...

One thing that always strikes me is how incredibly well trained women are to go along with the idea that it's ridiculous to get upset about something as silly as housework - you yourself OP have suggested that it's wrong to consider ending a relationship on the basis that your partner doesn't pull his weight.

Think about the fantastic position that puts men in. They get their socks washed and their dinner cooked and if their slave dares to complain about it they can shut her up by telling her she's a nag - she can basically be shamed into eating shit and liking it.

On basic practical level housework is boring, tiring, repetitive and time consuming. Very few people get any pleasure out of doing it - almost everybody would love to have staff to take it off their hands. So the idea that women should just get on with it and keep quiet about it because it's such a petty thing is patently false. But apart from that, it takes a pretty strong sense of arrogance and entitlement for a person to live in a house without ever considering themselves responsible for the upkeep of that house - to be happy to just sit there and watch a tired and resentful partner do it all on the basis that they 'don't see it' or 'don't know how to do it.' It's just not acceptable behaviour by any stretch of the imagination - most people would never behave that way with a colleague, never mind a loved one.

OP: my post was harsh (although I hope not personally so and if it was then I apologise.)

You’re shaken. And rightly so. Sometimes a shake is good.

What I will say is that I’ve seen this dynamic play out. I’ve seen the bumbling ‘oh mater did it’ types. I’ve seen how it pans out when kids get thrown in the mix and I’ve seen some wonderful, intelligent, hard working women get utterly ground into the dust on this.

Relationships break down for a number of reasons but I think this stuff is one of the biggest causes. Unless it’s really big stuff like DV, it’s not the big rows that kill love. What kills love is twenty years of slight, thoughtless, slightly uncaring gestures. It drips and it builds up. And it kills love and respect stone dead. What keeps love alive is twenty years of a cup of tea in bed and ‘no you have a lie in today I’ll take the kids to the park.’

Give him a chance to step up. And note carefully if and for how long he does. Good luck