to worry I have no choice but to become my MIL around the house

[JammyDodger99]

I will preface this by saying my DP is absolutely wonderful and I love him dearly. We are engaged to be married this year and have been living together under a year.

Again, to preface - our relationship is strong and healthy, and we never fight- our communication is good and if we ever disagree we are good at working things through by talking calmly.

So to the problem... That said, he is pretty hopeless at "practical" tasks including housework and DIY. My MIL raised him in a totally sexist environment where the boys were totally cooked and catered for and the girls looked after the house. She never expected the boys to lift a finger for anything and cleaned up all around them.. (I still see this in evidence when we visit her where her other DS are still at home). Thankfully, DP is intelligent and enlightened and realises this was completely ridiculous (and that we will not raise any future DC in this way)! He doesn't want to perpetuate this inequality in our household or with future DCs and would describe himself as a feminist.

However, his upbringing has left him without skills in this area, and I have had to teach him the very basics, including how to make a cup of tea! Before we met he lived in a rather stereotypical shared house with a load of guys who relied on Deliveroo for everything so he didn't pick up many household skills (FFS).

He is not great at doing things because he doesn't notice when they need doing e.g. doesn't automatically think about the laundry or cleaning the surfaces, and his expectations are generally lower than mine as well e.g. he would be okay about leaving a dirty plate on the side which I wouldn't. I don't want to make excuses but I genuinely don't think he notices half the time.

To his credit, whenever I ask him he immediately helps out, but it doesn't come naturally, and so I worry I will become a nag after years of this. He also needs guidance and can't cook a meal from scratch or even do the laundry without repeated instruction! FFS I know this sounds like a nightmare!!! He is so wonderful though, supportive of me, kind, funny etc and this is the only problem I have with our relationship!

DP and I both work, however he works reeeally long hours leaving at about 8.30 and not usually getting home until 10pm-12miidnight (and sometimes after). He also sometimes has to work through the weekend but not always. My hours are much more normal so I tend to have evenings available. Therefore I obviously do end up with the lion's share of housework / household chores which, on balance, I think is fair enough since I have more time.

When tackling a household chore at the weekend when he is there, I have found myself thinking "it will be easier / quicker to do this myself" but then I feel like I will start doing everything and basically become my MIL. (please no).

When we have discussed this my DP is open and agrees he should contribute fairly and is always very sorry he hasn't been proactive about it. DP says he wants to be reminded but I have said I'm not sure I should have to - not sure if this is realistic. DP's other suggestion is that because he is time poor he would be happy to pay a cleaner to do his share so I do less. (DP earns considerably more than me so could afford it - very lucky I know).

I don't know how I feel about all of this. He is genuinely not a lazy bastard, he works really hard for us both and is super supportive in every other way. Sometimes I watch him when he's doing some task I've asked him to help with, like changing the bedsheets or making a sandwich, and it's clear he really has no clue what he is doing!! If I didn't have to be on the receiving end I would find it hilarious, watching him fumble around bless him. E.g. When I asked him to cook some pasta he put the saucepan on the hob with no water!! Lol! I just assumed he would know how, this but it is tragic!

Again, I don't mean to paint him out the wrong way - he is in fact highly intelligent and in a very responsible job! Lol.

I have a feeling this must be a fairly common issue with men who have been raised in this way. What can I do or how should we both handle this as we embark on married life? Does anyone else have experience of being with a man raised in this way?

Don't even start me on how we will cope if and when babies come along. I am fully aware of how much we will need to support one another so we stay together, and don't crumble under the lack of sleep and hellish hard work of a baby. I guess I am trying to work out how we can move forward to pave the way for this as well.

Any advice from those with a similar experience gratefully received. X

To be fair, my DH was like this when we got together. OK, he could make tea, cook very basic meals but cleaning? Cooking From a recipe? DIY? Basic gardening? Nada. My friends DH is the same. You have two options:
Divide tasks so you feel they are equal - e.g. accept you do cooking / planning etc and he does bills / finances, have a cleaner / employ people for everything else. Wouldn’t work for everyone and you need cash to do this but it works for my friend.
If he is willing to learn then show him. It took my DH time but he absolutely does his fair share now without being asked. He can’t do DIY or gardening so we pay someone for the things I can’t do but that’s OK with me; if I’m gardening he cooks / watches DS. Yes I had to ask but asking isn’t nagging. Nagging is when someone doesn’t want to hear it. He was happy to be asked and would always do whatever it was and then volunteer next time.
If you can’t find a balance that works for you, then you have a problem. You don’t have one just because mumsnet says you do. Remember everyone’s advice (including mine) is tinged by their experience. Only you know deep down whether this is a problem or not. Because deep down you know what his real intentions are.

NotTakenUsername, there is just cannot be any reason why anybody should put up with this level of cheeky fuckery. Cheeky fuckery is not a disease/medical issue of a physical or mental nature. It's cheeky fuckery.

I have to show my 10 and 12yos how to do something once before they have got it and can do it. They're bright boys but not exceptional in any shape or form.

The other day the 10yo made fried eggs for himself, his brother and sleepover friend, without supervision. I (or dh, not sure) had shown him once, and he had no doubt watched us do it other times.

If your intelligent partner is 'bumbling around', it's not because he can't learn.

I second the recommendation to read the incompetent husbands thread. That is the way you'll be going if you don't sort this before you marry him.

Great post Bowl

This isn't about his job, it's about his attitude. There are men with Important Jobs who pull their weight at home (although not many as it is hard to compete at higher levels with men willing to neglect their children and dump on their wives to get ahead) and men with jobs that are not all that important but who still neglect their children and dump on their wives.

I've seen couples split up over things like this and also women who say they're staying together because it's easier than splitting up but their love and respect for their H has been eroded. And then the men wonder why their wives and not that up for shagging them. Lazy entitlement is a passion killer.

Given your income levels and time availability I would definitely get a cleaner anyway - not to cover 'his share' of the chores but because why would anyone want to do the hoovering if they could afford to pay someone else to do it. But as for washing up and tidying up after himself, well he's just got to get used to doing it! Honestly it's one of the biggest causes of stress in a relationship.

My DH is in his late 50s and from a generation that just relied on their mothers and wives to do everything for him, but luckily he's quite capable of cooking and clearing up after himself. What he's not good at (and a lot of men of any age are like this)id doing it automatically without being asked/reminded by me. It' the asking and reminding that is such a bloody pain in the arse. It makes you feel like their parent, not their partner, and over the years does affect your relationship in the sense that you feel less of a partner and more of a parent. It's not very sexy, being deferred to for all household decisions. But many women like it because they feel it reinforces their 'queen of the household' status. I hate it, personally, and make this clear on numerous occasions.

there is just cannot be any reason why anybody should put up with this level of cheeky fuckery....

And yet women up and down the country do, day in and day out. Why is that...?

This op isn’t even married yet, much less parenting children with this incompetent imbecile, but I’m quite sure this thread will not make her reconsider her future with him. Why is that?

In fact... I’d hazzard a guess that she has stopped reading and is singing, “lalala not listening’l with her fingers in her ears. Why is that?

I don’t like the blaming of the op that I can detect in lots of these posts. It isn’t her fault. Loving this man despite his selfishness isn’t wrong of her. No one is perfect.

Because of Patriarchy.

Tertiathethird, 'love' is an interesting word, isn't it? It kind of seems to excuse everything in our society. I don't think anybody is blaming the OP here. We are merely trying to point out that 'love' is a variable rather than a constant (despite its popular representations) and that it tends to be a hell of a lot more variable in a context where one partner is a cheeky fucker.

Patriarchy is so resistant to being dislodged because women love men even when they are setting them up for a future as a drudge.

this came up in my fb feed today, made me think of this thread.

Yes, but women love such men because of patriarchy. Love and patriarchy are not separate. Rather, patriarchy defines what love is between a man and a woman. Only the recognition of this fact will stop women from engaging in this 'love'.

Because of Patriarchy.

Correct. And why do we accept the patriarchy? Because we are conditioned to by our life experiences. I still maintain that it is extremely useful for the OP to consider what she witnessed as normal behaviour for the male in the household and the female in the household growing up.

It’s bloody fascinating. Even the fact that it was the OP who took to a forum to try and resolve this issue, while her useless partner does nothing... Not even Google ‘how to make a cup of tea’... he happily claims incompetence while he goes off to the city to do a very important and well paid job which probably requires quite a lot of initiative and competence.

This thread should not be about teaching the OP DP how to be less useless, It should be counselling her on how to have more self-respect before it is too late/she gets in any deeper/traps herself with children with this man.

Errr, NotTakenUsername, I think this is exactly what almost everyone of this thread is doing - counseling the OP to run for the hills.

It’s probably the most helpful piece of advice you will ever get tbh. You’ll wish you’d listened in 20 years after raising his children with him “not knowing” how to do any of

I don't agree unless you DP is clearly not willing to try to change, which yours seems to be. However you are very very wise to tackle this in the early days of your relationship and you should pay close attention to how willing he is to change/improve in this area

However it is VERY good advice to not allow his incompetence in this area to make you take over. You need to go throught the pain of him doing it incompetently for a while. You also neeed to lower your standard a bit (not to below what you can live with but a bit) - relationships are about compromise, they should not be a dictatorship from the person who is the tidiest by trraining/nature.

My Dh was absolutely clueless about housework (though he could cook) when I met him and he lived in what I can only describe as pigsty. 18 years later he does most of the cleaning and whilst I still do the occational big spring clean he does loads. He also does a lot of (if not most) of what is often called "wifework" - ie the thinking/organising. He regularly organises DS's holiday childcare without being prompted . He organised dental appoitnment etc for DS without me always reminding him.

In fact over the years, I would say he now does more than I do of ALL household related things,. This is because we now both work FT and I visit my elderly mother most weekends and spend a day looking after her which means I am home much less often than I used to be

Something that helped me was - a few years ago I made a sort of index card system (lists of things to do filed by day/week month etc) for cleaning the house (which I have stopped using about 2 years ago as I got bored and I can see when something needs cleaning so don't need them). The cards are in a box like this, with divides by month for occasional tasks, and day of the week for regular things. There is also a 'daily list'

DH instead still uses them religiously when he does the Saturday house clean (while I am at my mothers), He also gets DS to help.

The weird thing is, sometimes I notice that say the oven extractor needs a clean and then that weekend DH might redo it. This is always because the card for that month says clean extractor fan and he just does it as 'the cards say it needs doing". He tells me off for not moving th card to the next time it needs doing, which I always forget to do .

So he still doesn't see what needs cleaning but we now have a system that he used to prompt him to do things without me having to remember to do it all the time, which he uses all the time. It works great.

He really did need help He even had to be taught to use a damp cloth to wip the table after dinner. He would just use a teacloth otherwise:).

Also the regular claning stuff he learned to do quite quickly but the cards helped with the larger more irregular jobs (dusting blinds/ cleaning out cuboards, cleaning paintwork, de-moulding bathroom etc, ) that need doing when needed.

Also he still has touble putting a duvet cover on a duvet and it usaully ends up sort of bunched up. I always have to staighten it but I can live with that.

Jesus.

These threads are so commonplace - why?! What is so attractive about a man who is incapable of looking after himself?

adaline - cash (in many cases). It's only later that women realise that it's much easier to earn it themselves.

And then in Patriarchy men don't really need to be attractive. It's the women who have to be grateful that men pay attention to them. So they are.

AutumnMadness This is becoming i circular argument. I don’t think you really understood the context original post I made that you responded to.

Can you not at all acknowledge the value in encouraging op to understand why she is putting up with this behaviour.

We call state the dp behaviour all day, but unless the op decides to do something about it, nothing is achieved for her.

can*

slate*

I just think it's really sad.

I've seen this play out so many times - both IRL and online, and in 99% of cases, the relationship breaks down as a result. Why would you commit yourself to a man who is completely incapable of looking after himself, then decide to bring children into that situation?

It baffles me completely!

NotTakenUsername, yes, I think you are right, we have misunderstood each other. I think the reason is that the original comment that you responded to (that you just cited) was about people trying to be all understanding about HIS behaviour, whereas you focused on understanding HER behaviour and I missed this switch.

Yes, of course we can think about why women put up with this shit.

OP in case you're still reading - I'd imagine this has been a hard thread for you and it must seem like people are being overly harsh. I think why a lot of posters are getting so worked up about this is that, being older than you, we've seen or experienced first hand the long term effect that this sort of situation has on women - we've been the ones helplessly sobbing in frustration at having to deal with another load of washing while the baby cries and the toddler screams while partners 'don't see' what needs doing. I don't know if you understand the utter despair and loneliness of trying to keep a house running and looking after small children while your partner just skates on by claiming incompetence. I don't know if you can imagine just how much hatred you can have for another person when you've been up all night breastfeeding, you had to get up at 6 with your toddler, the house is a total mess, you've not even had time to shower in the last two days and your supposed 'partner' is asking you where his shirts are.

You and your DP are getting married. You're supposed to be a team, running your life together. Part of loving each other is supporting each other, making life easier, happier and more pleasant for each other. A lot of that takes time, thinking and effort. In your DP's case the time and effort should go into him being able to do his part in keeping the house running. By not making that effort off his own back, what he's saying to you is that he doesn't think it's necessary for him to put any of his energy into this, that it doesn't really matter to him. It doesn't matter if you're annoyed and stressed by it, he doesn't care, that doesn't affect him enough to do anything about it without you forcing him to. The long term corrosive effect of that fact is devastating.

I have to add that when he said he couldn't make tea it was likely he was using a well known tactic - looking to see how far he could push things before you would push back. And you bought it. Physical abusers use a tactic where they step on their partner's toe to see if the partner will buy the idea that it was an accident, in order to see if they can get to the next stage of abuse. Because you bought the tea story he's now trying to sell the idea that he can't learn that he finds it all so hard. Please don't fall for this. Don't look at yourself in the mirror in ten years time and think 'What a fucking waste this has been'

Do, by all means, try to make things better. But I can guarantee you that the only way you will know if he is capable of really changing is by saying to him that he either steps up and behaves like an adult or you are leaving and mean it. You then have to leave him to it, to figure out what to do by himself and he has to get on with it, by himself. Otherwise he will keep pull moves like the tea thing on you until you are so exhausted you don't know which way is up.

I don't have a good feeling about this I'm afraid. But I really wish you a lot of luck.

Spaghettijumper, excellent post! This is exactly how it is.

I have decided to respond to the general thread after signing off last night. Last night I felt quite shaken and overwhelmed by the responses on this thread, which I had not foreseen. In many ways, the fact that I was shaken was a good thing as it has made me evaluate things and unpick how our relationship has got to this point and what I want. So thank you for challenging me. In other ways it was pretty rough as I felt naturally upset by some of the more hurtful and unreasonable personal comments towards my DP, our sex life and essentially suggesting I had let down the whole of womankind in my love for this man.

This morning I woke up to a number of DM’s on Mumsnet from people saying kinder things who evidently felt it was better to message me personally rather than directly post on the thread. Thank you to them. A couple of them commented on the vitriolic atmosphere of some of the thread and I am sad they felt this was the case.

Caveat - Many of the posters have not read the whole thread and have therefore jumped to conclusions, made incorrect judgments or missed key points, such as me acknowledging my own internalised misogyny / blame on MIL etc, or his hours changing. Also, I did only show him the tea making / bed sheets one time before he got it – I was just saying how ridiculous he didn’t already know. I am therefore choosing to ignore posts that clearly haven’t contextualized. I know the thread is super long (and understand most people haven’t got time to read it all - yawn), but still, this is a developing conversation so pls don’t chime in unless you have all the info. I respectfully ask you, please don’t jump to swift judgments (you don’t know my background). To those who choose to comment without understanding the full development of this then I am choosing to ignore.

Update for anyone still here - Although as I said, I planned to have a chat with DP on our forthcoming holiday, as I was upset last night I ended up spilling when he came home. DP just listened and accepted. He suggested (without me saying it first) that we set up some kind of rota, and that we start by writing down a list of all the “invisible” tasks I end up doing so we have a clear picture of everything that needs to be done / gets done, before allocating stuff. He said he accepts this is shared responsibility and he hasn’t done his share. He agreed his behavior demonstrates a lack of respect for me, which he was mortified about. He accepted what I had to say about the seriousness of this and how I couldn’t do this in future, and my concerns it would kill our marriage in the end, if it doesn’t change. This was all at 1am last night, so we didn’t have the time to speak in full, but have agreed to set aside time when his annual leave starts, in just over a week. So we have had the headline conversation anyway.

Obviously this will need to be a fuller detailed talk where we work out things properly and agree. But in general I felt this was a positive first step.

As you know if you’ve read the thread, I have acknowledged that I have enabled this and I should not have accepted this up until now. (I know and understand my own reasons for this). I have acknowledged it needs to change, and that he may have, in some respects made it easier by being ‘crap’ at stuff, and that this is unacceptable. Yes that’s right, I have said I am NOT willing to accept his behaviour.

In response to some of the comments saying he is unwilling and that I should walk away from this relationship now, I don’t accept this.

Some pp’s have said DP should just KNOW how to do things and just do it. Okay, that would be lovely, but that clearly hasn’t happened. So I either
a) give up and dump my fiance as a lost cause immediately
b) see if we can work on this together like 2 adults.

For those who say a) “he is a lost cause / fuckwit/ loser” and I should walk away now… So are you saying you have never had to work on anything in your relationships? Are you saying both you and your DP are 100% perfect and easy to live with? That there was absolutely no work or adjustments that needed to take place in your marriages? Are you saying you have never accepted or tolerated behavior that was unacceptable, even before you realised the error?

I suspect some pp’s are angry because they have lived with this imbalance themselves for 20 years and the impact has taken it’s toll. Believe me I have HEARD YOU (married Mums with kids) on this and that is why I am communicating this with my DP and we are taking steps to try our absolute best that we don’t end up like this.

Do you really suggest it is not even worth taking steps to work on and I just walk away now? That this otherwise incredible man is basically worth nothing to anyone in this world, that he is nothing better than rubbish to be thrown on the scrap heap?

There are some behaviors, which WOULD result on me walking away immediately without a second chance, but this is not one of them, as I believe there is still hope.

He is a 25 year old man – yes an adult – but still with much learning ahead of him in life as have I, and as have we in our partnership. Can you honestly say you have not learned or developed, or become a better person over the course of your life? Have you not learned to become a better partner / wife, mother or friend as you have got older?

I am not going to list my justifications for loving him – needless to say he has been the most amazing supportive partner to me in aspects of my life, family, work and emotionally, and made sacrifices for me and us that will remain private. Am I to discard all of that on the basis that he has a lot to learn about housework and that we got off on the wrong footing in this area?

Or maybe, I can choose to do my best to start this conversation again with him, and work together as healthy adults to make our marriage a true partnership? I can choose to accept that he is not perfect, and neither am I, but that I am wiling to work with him equally anyway to make things better? I can acknowledge that misogyny and patriarchy is embedded in my own view of the world as much as his, and that I have struggled to admit and realize this? I can acknowledge that it is HARD to overcome this, and to practice relationships in a truly feminist ideal in this world, but that it is important to try where people are willing?

In my inbox I have heard stories from women who have managed to move forward on this issue with their DH/DPs. I am choosing not to dismiss this as a lost cause before we even really try.

Yes I do identify as feminist, but this does not mean I have succeeded at this. (I also identify as a socialist but I am sure I have caved into capitalism many times, and as a lover of the planet I am still working on being greener in my choices). Just because my DP and I have not modeled feminism so far doesn’t mean we can never achieve this or that we simply give up. I simply don’t believe that everyone on here manages it all so perfectly without ever having to work around a sticky issue. This stuff is hard, and we live in a world where all the structures are set up against us, but my DP and I have strong communication and abundant love. So I am going to give this a go. I owe myself that.