To tell new parents not to make a rod for their backs

[PenelopeChipShop]

I’ve thought about how to phrase this but I really want to post it. I just feel like i’ve made so many mistakes and I don’t want others to go through the same.

My DC are 5 (nearly 6) and 2 and neither are good sleepers. I didn’t sleep train either of them and was quite laid back/ attachment parent-ish about their sleep, believing all the relaxed people (lots of them on the munsnet sleep boards!) who said that children will sleep through when they’re ready, you won’t regret the cuddles, etc. I was confident in my choice and while I didn’t judge those who did sleep training, I thought it wasn’t for us.

Well almost 6 years of sleep deprivation have taken my youth, sanity, skin quality, patience and all my confidence in what I thought was the right path. It also isn’t an exaggeration to say that conflict over how to handle sleep issues played a huge part in ending my marriage.

I am now a LP to two children who still don’t sleep, ex H doesn’t have them overnight (though he has said he will ‘in future’ - I think this means when the little one is weaned off boob, which I do understand tbf) and every morning I wake up sandwiches between them, utterly exhausted, and angry because it takes all fucking evening to get them to bed. I have no energy or time for myself, all because I thought Dr Sears was right about traumatising children who are left to cry.

Well guess what, he is a man who has never actually breastfed every fucking night for hundreds of nights on end. So he can stuff his theories up his arse.

AIBU to tell new parents to get their kids used to self setting and to night wean them earlyish (6-12 months) so they don’t end up like me, ie a husk of their former selves.

I don't know if it had a title, but I'd let mine cry for min or two, but would go in if they were getting stressed.
Then quick cuddle and back down to sleep.
Once they settled reasonably easily I stopped the cuddle and just lay them down and tucked them in.
It worked for all 3 of ours, obviously the length of time varied as no two dc are the same.

"my attached children will grow up without a model of a loving relationship, and you won’t find a study anywhere that will say that’s beneficial to them, no matter how hard you look."

No - but - here's an article which references several (unfortunately, not directly, which is a shame, but I need to go to bed so I don't have time to look up direct links for you for the studies she references) which state that it's not harmful.

herbsandhags.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-joy-of-single-motherhood-and-why.html

You are doing a great job, in tough circumstances. THAT is beneficial.

OP, caiming that an attached mother and an attached father are mutually exclusive is a poor excuse. Dh coslept with both our kids when I night weaned. He was a SAHP for a couple of years when the kids were toddlers. He took both kids on vacation by himself across the ocean for a week (dd was 15 months and breastfed). I could go on.
You didn’t do anything wrong. You shouldn’t accept blame for your ex being an uninvolved parent.

We did whatever we could to make life bearable! We sleep trained both at about 10 months. It was feckin’ hideous! But I had to go back to work and I could not manage work on 3 hours of broken sleep a night! I hated it. But we were desperate. It wasn’t a perfect solution and they were both very different, but we are very lucky. Now they go to bed, they don’t disturb us very often, they sleep well. (They’re 8 and 4) But what I did resent more than anything was all the different “advice” from various well meaning people. I hadn’t asked for advice! I hate being told what I “need to do!!! Kids are all different aren’t they? What works for one, won’t necessarily work for another. We mustn’t be too hard on ourselves. Sleep is precious and each must do what they need to survive. Good luck all you sleep deprived mums and dads. It’s tough! Do what you need to do! Xx

We never sleep trained and yet Mt toddler telly you when he wants to go to bed, sleeps through and will happily entertain himself if he wakes up. He's not quite two yet either!

I take sleep very seriously because I had to sleep train myself (when I was an adult)! Came from a family where i was left to fend for myself as a kid. I was always tired & emotional. I've made huge efforts to teach my children(10 &8yrs now) the discipline of learning to go to sleep. It's worked, they're great sleepers

Don't beat yourself up about it. I co-slept, breastfed on demand and didn't sleep train and my daughter slept through perfectly every night with no night feeds after 1 (continued breastfeeding until she was 2 with no negative issues with sleep). Second child - treated exactly the same... Does. Not. Sleep. I think he's faulty. Some kids just get it earlier than others. I'm sure there are things you can try to help the situation but the problem is you're probably too damn tired. Xx

Your ex is making excuses; I breastfed my children, did a lot of co-sleeping and my DH is bonded to all 3 of them!

He did his fair bit of co-sleeping as well, particularly after my twins were born and my older boy was all up in a heap.

sox, humans are designed to breastfeed until 5 or 6, when their milk teeth (the clue is in the name) fall out and they lose the ability to latch to the breast correctly.

Breastmilk never loses its nutritive value, just like broccoli never loses its nutritive value.

Any advice to new parents is difficult- I got lots of pressure to do AP but fortunately a couple of close friends dropped a few hints in passing about what had worked for their children and I realised I didn't need to do that to have a happy, well-attached child. Somebody told me about the 'good-enough mother' which really helped. It turned out that attachment theory and attachment parenting were two different things and you certainly didn't have to do the parenting style to get the attachment.

Because I had relatives who did AP I already knew that it involved co-sleeping for ages. And that they and some other friends had made it work by the mother always going to bed by about 8pm and staying there until 8am (and this is with a pre-school aged child, not a newborn) And I realised we couldn't make that work for us because I have a job and wouldn't have 12 hours a day to spend in bed. It also turned out that I hated sharing a room with DD. We had a sidecar crib and followed the safe sleep guidelines so stuck it out with her in the room for six months but I found it very hard to sleep with her in there, I hated the claustrophobic feeling of being sandwiched inbetween her and DH and, by the end, she was being disturbed by me coughing in the night. Sleep for everyone got so much better and easier at six months when she was in her own room.

But it was incredibly hard to ignore the pressure to AP so trying to tell other people how to parent isn't great. A few hints along the way, fine, but lots of banging on about it (or getting related birthday and Christmas presents, like I did! isn't.

So sorry you're feeling this shit, OP, just through trying to do the best for your kids.

YANBU to offer the advice, but - as loads of people have said already - what works for one may not for another, even within the same family. If I'd had DD first, I probably wouldn't have had another child; she nearly broke me!

Seven years of sleepless nights, bed-hopping, picky eating - it got to the point where I fell asleep at the wheel one morning and had to pull over where I just sat in a lay-by crying as I couldn't cope with the exhaustion. We tried EVERYTHING to get her to sleep, and later to stay in her own bed. Nothing worked, but she finally sorted herself out of her own accord (mainly because she wanted to start going on sleepovers ... gaaahd!).

And this all followed on from my DS, who was sleep trained from day 1 as I had to go back to work. He never stopped eating, slept like a log from a few months in and was always a happy, easy baby. Smug twats that we were, we thought this was all down to our amazing parenting nous and that we'd researched the 'best' way to do things - ha! Didn't see child no 2 barrelling down the line to correct that notion in spectacular style ...

Tbh, I'm not really sure if anything we did or didn't do influenced either of my children in their temperament, eating or sleeping habits. They just do what they do, and your only responsibility is to get them - and YOU - through the tough times, in the most sane and healthy way for all of you. Be kind to yourself and don't keep up with BF if it's wearing you out. Let the kids sleep together in your bed, and go in one of theirs - whatever you need to do to get some rest. And try to focus some of your thoughts on all the lovely stuff that comes with having little ones - your kids will grow out of all this eventually, and you'll feel like a different person, I can promise that from experience, so don't miss out on the good bits because you're too tired to appreciate them.

I hope things get brighter for you soon

Wow, just wow @sox113! What more can I say, ignorance is bliss I guess?

I'll admit I'm not a highly educated person but if I remember correctly, puppies and kitten aren't the only mammals in the animal kingdom! Maybe elephants who feed their young for 4-5 years, or orang-utans who feed for 7 years, or the walrus who feeds for 2 years, or chimpanzees who feed for 5-6 years...I could go on but I won't. Most domesticated animals will wean their young earlier, not through choice but due to human interference. Animals in the wild, that are left to wean naturally, will do so much later than domesticated animals. For example, tigers (part of the cat family!) don't wean until about 6 months and wolves (part of the dog family!) would keep nursing for about 3-4 months.

Also saying 'this craze for breastfeeding till 2' is totally incorrect. In my 'limited' understanding, the definition of a fad or craze is 'something that is popular and widespread for a limited time', if my understanding is correct, that would mean that NOT breastfeeding for at least 2 years is actually the fad/craze considering women for thousands of years have nursed their young for much longer than 2 years as the norm. It's only been in the last 60-70 years that this has become less accepted (mainly in western society). Clever marketing can quickly change our mind set and make us believe that we should/shouldn't be doing 'something'. I wonder if they have some financial incentive to make us think that we need some manufactured product to safely/effectively rear our offspring as 'we' are obviously not 'up to the job' (even though, as you say, we have survived as a species for thousands of years!)

Also, the average age to stop breastfeeding across Europe is 4 years old. Considering the breastfeeding rates in the UK are so abysmal, that must mean that many other countries are still feeding their children way past 4!

I'm not a 'breastfeeding Nazi' as you so elegantly phrase it. I truly believe that any woman should feed her child as she wishes, without feeling any guilt or pressure from anyone, but she should also have the right to be given all of the correct, evidence based information to make that informed choice for herself, and not be plied with the myths that so many people seem to bandy around to justify their feeding choice.

Never mind, it's all too impractical for working women anyway so the WHO can say what they like, no-one will take any notice.

I would just like to say I work and bf'd my 1st till 2 1/2 and my 2nd is still nursing at 3 1/2 and I still manage to work, how bizarre, so there's another myth being peddled about.

And luckily, hundreds of thousands of people all over the world take a lot of notice of what WHO says, you know-all of that lovely evidence based information, based on actual evidence and actual research and actual controlled medical studies.

It's a good job we all have the ability to make an informed choice for what is right for 'us' and not have to be brainwashed by ruthless companies looking to make a quick buck from our insecurities and self doubt! ;-)

YANBU at all, op. I completely agree with you. I ignored all the guff people talked to me about how sleep training would traumatise my babies, and quietly followed GF. I am self aware enough to know that I am a monster when sleep deprived and knew from the start that I needed to prioritise getting them to sleep in their own beds, all night through.

I have seen the damage done to friends by well meaning pushers of attachment parenting, and it makes me quite angry actually.

I 'sleep-trained' by using the 'pick up, put down' method. I honestly don't know why more people don't do it. I'd put them to bed on a full tummy, awake and if they cries I'd let them cry (from quite a young age, a few weeks old) for 5 mins, then pick them up, comfort, and put down. Repeat. They learned to go to sleep themselves. They knew I was near but also that I would not feed them/ soothe them to sleep, bring them into my bed. Neither or them ever cried for longer than 5 mins, and they only did that a couple of times each.

Then you had babies with very easy temperaments. Why do people assume the same formula that worked for theirs should work for every single other baby in the universe ? I did this with dd1, she was self settling in no time . Tried it with ds and it never ever worked no matter how I persevered .

I couldn't live with a child in my bed. My children slept in their own beds and bedroom from 3 months. My bedroom is my space for me, to do with what I will, which is 99% of the time sleep

Botoxbeckons' post is spot on.
I have 4 DS - all treated the same, all individuals with different sleeping habits. In all things what worked for one didn't work for others. I was smug as after the first 2 were good sleepers then DS3 nearly broke me with his not sleeping, he is now 18 and can sleep for Britain.
All anyone can do is gently talk about their own experience without forcing it on others - the most important thing is a bit of honesty about how hard it can be, I found the competitive parenting thing when they were little very hard to take, and it just made me feel guilty and crap about myself until I realised some people just talk nonsense and should be ignored.
Us mums (and dads) are way too hard on ourselves, this I have learned far too late!
Dont blame yourself OP, try things out and see what works for you, switch it up if it's not working. Sleep deprivation is hideous and I get that it makes changing anything so much harder. Be kind to yourself, it will pass in the end I promise. Good luck.

Lloyd45 those were exactly my sentiments .I always saw my bed as my sanctuary after a long day as a SAHM . It is what kept me sane . My husband was always travelling so it was me on my own and I needed the peace and quiet in the evening and proper sleep.The first was in his own room at 9mths , the second at 4months.Bed times were strict so both gone between 6.30 and 7.30 in the evening once they were toddlers and going to Kindergarten /School.They were only allowed in my bed when ill or early in the morning.They are teenagers now and have the sleep of the Gods

Never mind, it's all too impractical for working women anyway so the WHO can say what they like, no-one will take any notice

I breastfed to 3 years and 8 months. It was never impractical. Rather the opposite.

But you know, clearly I’m wrong because kittens wean earlier

Not letting your baby scream isn't making a rod for your back.

Both of mine were EBF, co-slept and fed on demand and have never once cried alone at night.

That did mean that by society's standards they were pretty "bad" sleepers.

But no in their own rooms and other than waking for a wee, or if they're unwell they sttn fine. Have done since about 2 - although both coslept until 4ish as I wasn't ready to have them change rooms.

Youngest has a cold and DH and her have swapped beds a couple of nights this week as I can't be arsed getting out of bed when she wakes so on the first waking I tell her to get in with me and DH gets a room to himself, lucky bugger.

Sox you've made my day. That is some of the most ignorant crap I have ever heard spouted on mn.
My favourite was this part

just listen to those old women who've done it already

Just because you've managed to raise some children yourself does NOT make you an expert on anyone else's babies. My mother has the exact same attitude as you. She wants to ignore any and all scientific studies conducted in the 30odd years since she has children (cause science is voodoo probably!) And is constantly coming out with the phrase 'well it did you no harm'

Well.... actually mum I was an incredibly anxious child and had very low self esteem... both of which carried on in to adulthood. Of course, I would never have told her that because we weren't ever remotely close (I wonder why) and still aren't close now.

That sounds terrible and I'm sorry you've had such a rough time. I think YANBU at all - I've seen some lovely friends and family practice laid back, baby-led parenting when it comes to sleep times and many have experienced similar issues later on (children struggling to sleep solo / can't get to sleep at a reasonable time / refuse to stay in bed etc).

I've always been a bit of a sleep Nazi with my kids; never co-slept, had a regular and fairly early bed time, didn't allow them to get up and down etc. Luckily (and I accept entirely that it may just be luck!) my two now go to bed on time, lights out and sleep through without any trouble. Sleeping well is a skill that has to be taught, IMO.

Sorry your ex made you feel that way but the blame is on him, not you or your sleep methods. My friend coslept and after 1.5 years her husband wasn't keen. He told her he missed sharing a bed and felt that it and other things were making them drift. They worked together as a team and are such a strong unit: more dc (some cosleeping, some not) later. Because he communicated and she listened. Because he chose to fight for his marriage. Your husband checked out and wasn't even strong enough to be honest, instead he blamed.

Stop making excuses for your ex . He is the problem , not AP! Does the six year old still breastfeed ? He can have them both for the night . You sound like you deserve a damn good break .
(Although I did find what you said about dr sears very funny !)
Good luck OP. You can do this .

Sleep training / stopping BF might not have helped! I know people who did both and they still have difficult bedtimes/ lots of wake ups.. plus you then have the problem of trying to get them off bottles after 1year old. Can't imagine how I'd have coped with any night take wake ups without breastfeeding, how the hell do you get them back to sleep!? Non breastfed / sleep trained babies still wake in the night..

I've fed to sleep the whole time and my little one is a great sleeper, nearly always asleep by 7pm and very rarely wakes in the night, and is fine with other people putting him to bed.

OP I'm sorry your marriage has ended and your ex has been a dick. I'm sorry that your kids aren't good sleepers.

FWIW (not much) neither DH nor I ever wanted to sleep train, we both hated hearing the DC cry as babies. We co-slept until they were old enough to be gently nudged into their own rooms with reward charts which was age 5 for both of the older ones and hasn't happened yet for the youngest, who is 4. The older two go to sleep by themselves and sleep brilliantly. I night weaned them all around 18 months because I was fed up of feeding in the night at that point.

Would a reward chart at this point work for your oldest? We got the kids' buy in - explained what we were doing, and why - and basically made these month long reward charts with a little reward every few nights - things that we would've done anyway like 'bake cupcakes' or 'have a film night' and by the end of the month the new habit was completely ingrained. 5 is old enough to understand that Mummy is really tired and needs more rest.

The youngest still comes through in the night but he hasn't a few times recently and DH is the one who feels really sad about it.

This thread is almost 5 years old, presumably they're sleeping OK now!