To tell new parents not to make a rod for their backs

[PenelopeChipShop]

I’ve thought about how to phrase this but I really want to post it. I just feel like i’ve made so many mistakes and I don’t want others to go through the same.

My DC are 5 (nearly 6) and 2 and neither are good sleepers. I didn’t sleep train either of them and was quite laid back/ attachment parent-ish about their sleep, believing all the relaxed people (lots of them on the munsnet sleep boards!) who said that children will sleep through when they’re ready, you won’t regret the cuddles, etc. I was confident in my choice and while I didn’t judge those who did sleep training, I thought it wasn’t for us.

Well almost 6 years of sleep deprivation have taken my youth, sanity, skin quality, patience and all my confidence in what I thought was the right path. It also isn’t an exaggeration to say that conflict over how to handle sleep issues played a huge part in ending my marriage.

I am now a LP to two children who still don’t sleep, ex H doesn’t have them overnight (though he has said he will ‘in future’ - I think this means when the little one is weaned off boob, which I do understand tbf) and every morning I wake up sandwiches between them, utterly exhausted, and angry because it takes all fucking evening to get them to bed. I have no energy or time for myself, all because I thought Dr Sears was right about traumatising children who are left to cry.

Well guess what, he is a man who has never actually breastfed every fucking night for hundreds of nights on end. So he can stuff his theories up his arse.

AIBU to tell new parents to get their kids used to self setting and to night wean them earlyish (6-12 months) so they don’t end up like me, ie a husk of their former selves.

Also I think your ex is using bf as an excuse not to have the kids over night. My husband (who I am still married to 😉) used to use this as a reason/excuse not to have the kids alone...'you can't go out overnight as x won't sleep as you bf him'. With my first I agreed with him and never went anywhere until he stopped feeding at 2 1/2 , with the second I thought 'no way'. Told hubby he'd just have to deal with it, which he did and actually 2nd went to sleep OK without bf (when I was not there/available). And he's still bf to sleep now but if I'm out/not here at bedtime then daddy just has to sort him out! Didn't do this early days but have since he was about 18 months old.

Lillian you are spot on! A few years back I would have read those AP links and agrees with every word. Hell, I still do - i’m a soft touch who lets the kids sleep with me. I’m terrified of damaging them by leaving them to cry.

But what i’m trying to point out, to people not as far down the line as me, is that this simply doesn’t work for all couples. My DH never said anything at the time but when he left us he said cosleeping had come between us. He also felt breastfeeding stopped him bonding with the kids. He felt that they were so attached to me that he couldn’t parent them while I was there - hence the separation, I think.

Yes there are other issues too but I do strongly feel that attempting to be an AP ruined my marriage and has made my day to day life as a parent harder not easier. I guess I just feel that I want to share that, to add some balance to the great things you read about it. Yes, it creates attached children. But my attached children will grow up without a model of a loving relationship, and you won’t find a study anywhere that will say that’s beneficial to them, no matter how hard you look.

Those are excuses and blame being placed on you for his faults. It's very unfair of him to do this, especially as he said nothing at the time. You apparently should also have been a mind reader.

Breastfeeding doesn't stop fathers bonding with children. That's an bs excuse on his behalf.

Penelope Very interesting because my dcs were born in France where AP is not a thing. Here parents are very keen to get their DCs sleeping through, breast feeding is not such a big thing and there is more focus on not letting your relationship with your dcs overwhelm your relationship as a couple.

I went to my grandchildren 's nursery and was amazed to see 18 month olds told to go to sleep. They then lay on the floor on the carpet, were covered by a small blanket each and went to sleep. All of them. All 10. Just like that.
I had a strict routine and all mine were going through the night by three months. My mother in law said to me once how lucky i was to have children who slept and i said 'luck had nothing to do with it'. Sleep is not a monster, it is a natural thing, just like eating. No fuss, no bother, just routine, every day, which children love. You are the adult, you know best, not them. It is up to you. Btw animals stop feeding their young when they get sharp teeth, it hurts, then they mush up food for them. Breastfeeding at 2? Crazy, weaning and teeth go together. It's not rocket science, just listen to those old women who've done it already!

Not saying the French are right by the way, just that you come under a completely different set of pressures here. I think I probably steered a middle ground - loved breast feeding, but would never have co-slept.

Breastfeeding at 2 is not crazy, don't be so rude Sox113. Some babies get teeth at 3 months, or younger, it's got nothing to do with when you might stop breastfeeding them.

there are gently sleep training methods .. there are sleep trainers who don't do cry it out ...

I 'sleep-trained' by using the 'pick up, put down' method. I honestly don't know why more people don't do it. I'd put them to bed on a full tummy, awake and if they cries I'd let them cry (from quite a young age, a few weeks old) for 5 mins, then pick them up, comfort, and put down. Repeat. They learned to go to sleep themselves. They knew I was near but also that I would not feed them/ soothe them to sleep, bring them into my bed. Neither or them ever cried for longer than 5 mins, and they only did that a couple of times each.

Parents I knew who did the 'rocking to sleep, feeding to sleep' then found themselves, exhausted and at their wits end, trying to sleep train far older babies/toddlers, and letting them cry for far far longer than 5mins.

@AssassinatedBeauty exactly! My friends baby was born with teeth, it’s unusual but it does happen! My baby is 12 months and she’s almost got a full set of teeth but she’s only ever bitten me once whilst breastfeeding, the tongue and the lips prevent the teeth going near the nipple.

Breastfeeding is recommended until 2 years old, there seems to be a lot of squeamishness around infants over 6 months breastfeeding but it’s perfectly natural and won’t do any harm.

YABU.
It’s absolutely ridiculous to suggest anyone with a laid back approach or embraces AP will have the same experience as you.
ALL children are different and what works for one will be the opposite for another. Having a good sleeper is largely down to luck. We have a baby DS who’s almost 5mths old, he’s held for naps, cuddled, coslept etc He slept for 6hrs overnight from coming home, he now sleeps at least 9-10hrs every night without fail, without waking.
He’s the happiest smiliest baby and has no problems self settling either as he feels safe and secure. As someone who works for Children’s Services I would never ever do any kind of “cry it out” due to the very real development damage it does to the brain.
I also have no need or desire for sleep training.
That said, if I’d been unlucky enough to have a baby who wakes constantly during the night I dare say my viewpoint would be different.
So no, I’d advise new parents to do what works for them but stress that ‘making a rod’ is a load of rubbish and you really can’t cuddle and have contact with your baby enough.

you really can’t cuddle and have contact with your baby enough.

You don't need to cuddle them to sleep though. You really don't. It's possible to get them to go to sleep on their own without leaving them to cry.

You don't need to cuddle them to sleep though. You really don't.

Of course you don't, but sometimes it's easier and sometimes it's just lovely.

Some of my happiest moments have been sitting with a sleeping baby on me. Feeling them breath, smelling their head and hearing them sigh a contented sigh. It wasn't something that I felt the need to discourage. It was inconvenient at times, but I wouldn't do it any differently if I had the chance.

She's asking if it's unreasonable to give other parents anti-AP advice. That's why people are offering their own positive experiences of AP. Just because AP wasn't right for OP it doesn't mean it's wrong for everyone.

TBH the main thing I've learned in time with parenting is that short of neglect or abuse there is no right and wrong - this is why I really dislike comments about feeding to sleep being "the worst thing you can do" or, OTOH, sleep training being "cruel" - everyone has a different level of what's acceptable to them and in what direction, and while we all have different beliefs on what may or may not be harmful, until those are actually shown by research, people are pretty much free to decide for themselves. Much as I don't like the practice myself, there is no consistent research on sleep training, the studies people usually refer to involved far worse neglect than children being ignored for short periods during the night time when they tend to have attentive and affectionate care during the day. We have no research on that. All we know for sure is that neglect (not sleep training, though being left to cry is part of neglect) causes attachment disorder, and also that crying causes stress, which, TBH, who actually doesn't realise that? People don't think babies cry for fun, do they? I mean if you actually think that a baby crying is just meaningless noise and you don't understand that it's a person who is trying to communicate then you must be exceedingly unempathetic. But a baby being upset isn't (always) a reason not to do something, especially if there's a good reason to do it. We don't go out of our way never to upset babies, if we did they'd never have their nappies or clothes changed or their faces wiped or get vaccinated or take medicine, they'd be allowed to play with scissors and crawl into ponds and climb on the steering wheel when you're driving the car and all kinds of things which it would be ludicrous to take their upset as a hard no on. For some people sleep comes under that category, and for others it doesn't.

Sox113 of course animals don't stop feeding their young when they get sharp teeth. Animals are born with sharp teeth! Breastfeeding at 2 also isn't crazy, it's the biological norm. It's what human babies/children are 'designed' to do. The WHO recommends breastfeeding to 2 AND beyond. Why is giving human milk, perfectly adapted for human babies/children 'crazy' but not allowing children human milk to go on and replace it with milk from a different species (usually cow) seen as completely normal and preferably? That's crazy!

You can offer someone asking for advice your own personal experience. But personally I wouldn't bother. Honestly, would you have listened to someone 5 years ago telling you not to make a rod for your own back? People have to make their own mistakes, it's how they learn. There's plenty of things I would do differently as a parent if I had my time again. But we are where we are and there's not much I can do to change it.

No one of any age gets into bed and falls immediately to sleep
Except me ....

Fine to go back for reassurance, but not to rock, or worse still feed, your LO to sleep
Reassurance, tummy rubs, singing, checking nappies etc.all failed. The only thing that worked was bf and co-sleeping. Then all was calm. And as I said, they learnt to self-esteem by 9-12 months.

*self-settle

@Sox113 you are displaying total ignorance about breastfeeding and an exceedingly judgemental attitude. I'm embarrassed for you.

Genius 1308 puppies, kittens - no teeth until 4 weeks then the mother stops feeding when the teeth come through, pushes them away and vomits up partially digested food for them to eat. Clearly you haven't bred many animals! Never mind, it's all too impractical for working women anyway so the WHO can say what they like, no-one will take any notice.

Assassinated beauty you are funny, read your post again and see who is being personal and judgemental. People are allowed to disagree with you about the craze for breastfeeding without being called ignorant.

@Sox113 so it’s ok for you to make people feel guilty for breastfeeding a 2 year old but no one should ever mention that the WHO (y’know, real medical professionals with their studies and evidence) encourage breastfeeding because it might make some people feel guilty?

BTW the product in the “if you choose to move on” advert you mention was developed specifically to get around advertising guidelines that say you can’t market formula for infants under 6 months.

To some extent I think it depends on the child
Both my children were EBF but both gave up breastfeeding of their own accord by 18 months. First child was an absolute nightmare as a baby when it came to sleeping (screamed and screamed if we held/ cuddled/ laid with/ rocked shushed or ANYTHING) out of sheer desperation I placed her in her cot one night when she was about 7 months old and I locked myself in the shed 🙈 she cried herself to sleep and I hated myself for letting her. 3 nights later of doing the same thing and she was sleeping through the night. She's now 8 and (other than the fact she often thinks she's 18!) we have a great relationship, no attachment issues. She has always liked to sleep with door closed, pitch black and no fuss!
Second child (now 5) was the opposite, only woke to feed for the first 5 months and would sleep anywhere anyhow. Even though he was EBF he slept through from around 8 weeks (12hrs!) - was just nearly permanently attached to my boob through the day. As mini people now they are like chalk and cheese - eldest is fiercely independent, very academic, highly opinionated and can be demanding. Youngest is so chilled he's horizontal- he'd happily live in a cave with the dog and ask for nothing 🤷‍♀️

No, @Sox113, I'm actually referencing the ignorance demonstrated in your posts that show you don't have an understanding of breastfeeding. No matter how much you know about breeding animals.