To tell new parents not to make a rod for their backs

[PenelopeChipShop]

I’ve thought about how to phrase this but I really want to post it. I just feel like i’ve made so many mistakes and I don’t want others to go through the same.

My DC are 5 (nearly 6) and 2 and neither are good sleepers. I didn’t sleep train either of them and was quite laid back/ attachment parent-ish about their sleep, believing all the relaxed people (lots of them on the munsnet sleep boards!) who said that children will sleep through when they’re ready, you won’t regret the cuddles, etc. I was confident in my choice and while I didn’t judge those who did sleep training, I thought it wasn’t for us.

Well almost 6 years of sleep deprivation have taken my youth, sanity, skin quality, patience and all my confidence in what I thought was the right path. It also isn’t an exaggeration to say that conflict over how to handle sleep issues played a huge part in ending my marriage.

I am now a LP to two children who still don’t sleep, ex H doesn’t have them overnight (though he has said he will ‘in future’ - I think this means when the little one is weaned off boob, which I do understand tbf) and every morning I wake up sandwiches between them, utterly exhausted, and angry because it takes all fucking evening to get them to bed. I have no energy or time for myself, all because I thought Dr Sears was right about traumatising children who are left to cry.

Well guess what, he is a man who has never actually breastfed every fucking night for hundreds of nights on end. So he can stuff his theories up his arse.

AIBU to tell new parents to get their kids used to self setting and to night wean them earlyish (6-12 months) so they don’t end up like me, ie a husk of their former selves.

I started routine almost immediately and let my babies self sooth. It was harder at the beginning but then they slept through after only a few weeks old. The only time I bf to sleep was if they were ill.

I have 5 children. None of them sleep trained. All fed to sleep and co-slept. 2 bottle fed and 3 breast fed until around 18 months. All slept on me for every nap until they were 2 ish. No fixed bedtimes.

All of them moved to their own beds at 3 with a little encouragement.

All of them good sleepers. The youngest is now 5 and the eldest 18.

I can count the number of sleepless nights I've had between them on one hand. As long as they were in my arms they were content. So was I. Sleep training wouldn't have worked for them or me. I needed them as much as they needed me to be able to sleep.

Children are different. Some are much more difficult than others. That is a fact. Parents are different. We all have different breaking points. There is no magical right way to raise children. All I know is that a relaxed, go with the flow, attachment style worked well for us.

The funny thing about parenting is that by the time you are an 'expert' your children are grown. You learn so many lessons and with hindsight, it is easy to see ways we could have done it better. But your wisdom doesn't work on other people's children. It is a specialism unique to your own and useless to others. We all have to find our own way.

I think people have got the wrong idea about sleep training. There's more to it than 'Cry it out' and the opposite approach led by Sarah Ockwell-Smith leaves parents ending up like the OP.

Find a pragmatic sleep coach/consultant/ counsellor/trainer whatever they want to call themselves and you'll find everyone sleeps better.

Feel free to PM me if you want the name of one.

Sleep trained both of mine as had six months mat leave, have a crazy job, was a rubbish breast feeder and had PND. So they had to sleep for my sanity! DS slept for 10-12 hrs per night at 3 months and 2x2 hr naps til he was nearly 2. He was a massive baby ate loads and I think was just growing a lot in his sleep! DD is a daintiesr thing and could just about manage 10hrs straight by 1 and now at 18 months wakes at 5ish and won’t sleep during the day except in her buggy/ the car. They are certainly alll different. That said my experience of two Nct groups was that those who winged it and Were more flexible on feeding sleeping etc ended up with babies who were the same and it took much longer for them to settle into a routine. Each to their own. As I said it was necessary for my sanity. Still is and so I trained them. They and I would be much worse off in many ways if j hasn’t.

I wouldn’t describe feeding your child to sleep or co-sleeping as cardinal sins, but I wouldn’t describe any child who could only get to sleep like that as a brilliant sleeper. Especially difficult for anyone who requires someone else to be able to put their child to bed from time time (which the OP does now she and her DH are no longer together).

I don’t know what sleep training is but I think I might have done it unwittingly!

I had a very strict and boring winding down regime which happened like clockwork at the same time every night.

Bath time, talks and cuddles, singing them a few songs when babies and reading stories when older, shut bedroom door ( with baby monitor), sleep. I also read the alphabet frieze to both children every night to fix it in their minds which paid off greatly.

When they were older and unable to sleep at seven they could listen to a story tape for a while, and, of course read.

I hear of nightmare scenarios now with children and social media so I would advise taking any device connected with the outside world away from them when they are in bed. Start this from the word go and never give in.

I have to say that I believe all children are different and they will do a,b,c when they are ready. Do we, as adults, all do the same thing at the same time? I know I don't. My husband is an early bird, always in bed (or falling asleep on the sofa) by 10pm but at 7am he'll be 'up and at 'em'. I, on the other hand, am I night owl. I can still be up and ironing/washing/sorting paperwork at midnight and still be bright eyed and bushy tailed...mornings for me are a different matter all together 😂. I bf both of mine. The first (now 10) I 'loosely' sleep trained. I would feed, put him in his bed and leave....then go back to put him back I'm his...then repeat for several hours until he finally when to sleep through sheer exhaustion. That went on for months and months and months. It made me stressed, husband stressed, child stressed but people said 'that's what you should do'!!!! He still woke regularly through night until he was about 8. When I had my second, now 3, I decided not to bother (the first time was stressful all round). This one I bf to sleep (about 5-10 minutes in total), in our bed, and that's where he stays until I come to bed and then I transfer him into his bed. He always sleeps through, and always has done. I wish I'd done the same with 1st, it might not have made any difference to him waking in the night but it would have reduced our stress levels and I wouldn't have wasted months of my life going up and down the stairs, while not speaking or making eye contact, to take him back to bed. Every child is different and no matter what the 'experts' say you MUST do to achieve desired outcome, it rarely works because babies don't come out as robots, with little watches so they know the time for all these routines and they haven't read all the books! They're individual beings, with individual needs just like us adults.

I dunno, my children must be odd, but my DP, the nursery staff and various relatives have all managed somehow to get them to sleep in my absence. I think they learn that things can be different with different people in different settings. And my weird children both just stopped feeding to sleep of their own accord and then went off to sleep whilst not latched on. Didn't do anything to make that happen, they seemed to grow out of it.

The OPs ex is being a total shit by avoiding having his children overnight. In all likelihood they would be ok and sleep, maybe not as quickly as he'd like but tough. He's opting out of fully parenting at the moment.

My kid was never sleep trained and is an excellent sleeper BUT we did a very firm routine with her from the get go - same time to bed every night.

Mum to 7 here and did more or less the same thing with all of them, which was to not let them cry it out, not full co-sleeping, but in the room with me for quite a while, bedtime routine, which included putting them down not quite asleep whenever possible, and their sleeping habits have been all over the map. Just like their personalities, temperaments and energy levels. I did what felt right for us, and though some were horrid sleepers, some easy, I can look back now (youngest is 2.5) and see that they’re simply different people. I believe I would have had the same mixed bag no matter what approach I had taken. Also long term sleep deprivation is one of the most brutal slow tortures, I feel for all who have been there.

We sleep trained at 6 months, on HV advice because sleep deprivation had made my PND so bad that I was suicidal, because DS was waking every 45 minutes. DP and I were on our knees. It took three evenings, DS slept through the first night, and never needed another night feed. He's happy, loving and has an excellent attachment, and sleeps through nearly every night, save illness or the occasional nightmares. If he wants us, he calls for us and we immediately go to him, disproving the bollocks about them 'not crying because they've learned no-one will come when he cries'. He goes down without a murmur every night - we read two stories, sing his night night song and walk out while he's still awake, and he drifts off happily on his own. Naps were the same until he outgrew them.

In comparison, many of my friends' children are still, at 3 or 4 years old, co-sleeping, or taking an hour to get to bed, or waking three times a night. Several friends have to lie on the floor holding their child's hand until he or she falls asleep, for up to 2 hours a night, then commando crawl out of the room so as not to wake the kid. No thanks.

I'd give your hindsight for what you would do differently and they can take it or leave it. Each will do what they feel is right for their child and will usually listen to advice but discount anything they don't want to do.
I'd definitely dissociate BF with sleep earlier... DD sleeps well on me but nowhere else. 7 months in and trying to juggle naptimes to optimise time in her cot before she needs a shoogle or boob again at night. She gets plenty sleep but I don't. Usually 2 hour spells then every hour she's up... missed the last nap yesterday as we were out so she slept 5.5 hours in her cot and I got my first 4 hour continuous sleep in 7 months!! Can't be doing that all the time though so slowly does it!

Anyway I digress... I've done what I've felt is right so far even though I'm half dead but lucky enough to have a year off work and find that people telling me what I should do rather than offering the benefit of their wisdom for me to take or leave is rather condescending and really annoying when you can't remember what sleep feels like
Tread lightly and they'll be glad of your advice and choose to follow it or not

I've established that no child, sibling or family are the same. My first wouldn't settle in his cot and had to sleep on you, my second won't settle on you and has to sleep in a cot from 7pm onwards.

They are both equally different in their own unique ways and I couldn't apply any of the techniques for no.1 to no.2!

I agree trying to establish good sleeping patterns from birth and then adjusting to age etc. Especially feeding. And winding down for about 1.5 hours before sleep if possible. So no TV etc and bath and stories.

I agree with you op and feel for you!

Why do people expect babies/toddlers to sleep alone? Why do they think they need to be ‘taught’ to sleep, to ‘self-soothe’ ?

It’s bull. Honestly, humans are primates, close contact mammals, our babies need to be held and soothes and rocked, and there’s a bucket load of research that shows that those babies that have been ‘taught to self-soothe’ are actually excreting tonnes of cortisol (a stress hormone) and not ‘content’ at all.

www.isisonline.org.uk

Wow, it sounds like you’re having a very tough time. You need some support, is there anyone who you can rely on, to give you a break/cuppa and chat?

I have 3 children. In hindsight, I think I was too strict with a routine when DD1 was born, but it worked beautifully and she’s always been a happy sleeper overall...I just wish I’d grabbed more cuddles. I then had twins and we felt there was no choice but to employ a routine, to save our sanity!! The twins are also bed-lovers. Don’t get me wrong, they like to mess about and not listen and we do take a no nonsense approach if they’re horsing about at bedtime!

But, it’s not too late for you to start up some bedtime rules. Kids are smart and if you were to chat to them, about how mummy is worn out and sad and we need to fix this, I’m sure they’d want you to feel better, because they care about you, you’re their world, you really are! Then, you set out some rules. Research online and in books for tips that appeal to you, on bedtime routines. It’s about what works for you and, your lifestyle right now is not!

um, I think you are taking a sample of two children and drawing a conclusion without enough data...
Both my children co slept and were breast fed through the night, until they were nearly 3. They used to sleep well in our bed, only feeding to sleep and maybe at 6 am after about 18 months.
They are both good, and happy, sleepers in their own beds, now 4 and 9. I don't think I made a rod for my own back, bf in bed meant I avoided getting up and feeding in the middle of the night.
Some children are just crap sleepers, as are adults.

The OP is not asking for advice, she’s describing her experience. Attachment parenting has destroyed her marriage and she is now a lone parent with two children who don’t sleep so why are people giving her advice about how great AP is? The reaction you have sparked on this thread OP is the very reason why should not give any advice to new parents unless specifically asked. Everyone and no one is an expert - all you can safely say is that what you did did not work for you.

One thing which seemed obvious after going through all that was we should have just put a mattress in the room on the floor for my son. He would have been happy with that we realised later after going on holiday he slept and didn’t wake up beind next to us whereas at home he’d wake up every night to come in bed with us.

And I totally sympathise with your situation. Disagreeing about these things didn’t make our life easy either.

Yeah, I don't see this as an AP issue though. You could say that co sleeping was AP, but we also did tell them pretty firmly to go to sleep and stop mucking about when they were just being annoying and trying it on.
You have to try different things, and if it doesn't work for you, then try something else? Try getting them in their own rooms and making them stay there. Sure, it is hard, it means a few nasty few nights, but if it's not working for you, then why put up with it?
Our worked for the most part, but like anything, if it doesn't, why martyr yourself?

Because people are referring to their own positive experience to disagree with her and say she is being unreasonable. Which is answering her original question.

Mind your own business

The funny thing about parenting is that by the time you are an 'expert' your children are grown. You learn so many lessons and with hindsight, it is easy to see ways we could have done it better. But your wisdom doesn't work on other people's children. It is a specialism unique to your own and useless to others. We all have to find our own way. wisest and most pertinent comment on the thread.

YANBU. Gentle sleep training saved me from PND. The hellish sleep deprivation of the early months of my DD’s life is one of the reasons I don’t really want another child.

Co-sleeping is great if it works for you, but it infuriates me that so many ‘attachment parents’ promote it as the ideal solution and imply that if you want your child to sleep in their own bed it’s somehow unnatural. I can’t co sleep with my daughter - she thrashes about and I can’t get comfortable. We both sleep better in separate beds.