To tell new parents not to make a rod for their backs

[PenelopeChipShop]

I’ve thought about how to phrase this but I really want to post it. I just feel like i’ve made so many mistakes and I don’t want others to go through the same.

My DC are 5 (nearly 6) and 2 and neither are good sleepers. I didn’t sleep train either of them and was quite laid back/ attachment parent-ish about their sleep, believing all the relaxed people (lots of them on the munsnet sleep boards!) who said that children will sleep through when they’re ready, you won’t regret the cuddles, etc. I was confident in my choice and while I didn’t judge those who did sleep training, I thought it wasn’t for us.

Well almost 6 years of sleep deprivation have taken my youth, sanity, skin quality, patience and all my confidence in what I thought was the right path. It also isn’t an exaggeration to say that conflict over how to handle sleep issues played a huge part in ending my marriage.

I am now a LP to two children who still don’t sleep, ex H doesn’t have them overnight (though he has said he will ‘in future’ - I think this means when the little one is weaned off boob, which I do understand tbf) and every morning I wake up sandwiches between them, utterly exhausted, and angry because it takes all fucking evening to get them to bed. I have no energy or time for myself, all because I thought Dr Sears was right about traumatising children who are left to cry.

Well guess what, he is a man who has never actually breastfed every fucking night for hundreds of nights on end. So he can stuff his theories up his arse.

AIBU to tell new parents to get their kids used to self setting and to night wean them earlyish (6-12 months) so they don’t end up like me, ie a husk of their former selves.

Don't be daft, that's your personal opinion. You have no idea who might have done sleep training or who hasn't.

IMO yes YABU. My son was never sleep trained, slept in my bed from night one until about 2 1/2, very gentle parenting all the way. He's almost 5 and sleeps well on his own room 99% of the time.
I'm sorry that you haven't had that experience but you are unreasonable to think everybody else will. Had you said that to me I would have said that I do not believe in letting children cry themselves to sleep because research has proven that it does cause damage.
If you choose to let children self soothe that is entirely your choice but please do not try to get others to follow.

moreofaslummythanyummy that is absurd. How can you find a connection between parents who didn't sleep train to those with 'feral' children? And for your information I didn't train any of my kids and they slept through as soon I decided to stop breastfeeding. I assure you I am not a gentle parent with no boundaries. Sometimes I feel sorry for my kids because of the rules they have, yet the only rule I didn't follow was to sleep train.

YABVVVVVU just because it didn’t work for you doesn’t mean it won’t work for other people and if they follow your advice they might miss out on special moments with their children.

I carry my baby in a sling, she slept in our room until 6 months, she sometimes sleeps in our bed if she won’t go down in her cot and she sleeps between 12-16 hours per night without waking and naps during the day. If she cries I breastfeed her and I wouldn’t change any of that.

It’s so totally dependent on the individual child.

Penelope, you are clearly struggling, and in need of some support. I completely feel your pain as I have been there. However I now have a 14 yr old and 11 yr old who do sleep (and have done for many years!) and we all bed-shared (and boobed) for years. However, I did teach mine ‘bed manners’. I’d tell them to move over and not squash me, etc, I had a sidecar cot on a double bed and this gave us enough room to each get a decent sleep.

But, you have not made a rod for your back, you have given your children the support and nurture they need to cope with life, especially the changes and challenges of your marriage break up. These first few years are hard, they are intense and can feel impossible, but they do pass, and I don’t regret my parenting choices at all. My children still like to cuddle, and seem able to talk to me about stuff their peers feel uncomfortable discussing with their parents.

Hang in there, maybe introduce some boundaries, but you haven’t made a rod for your back, you’ve actually given your family a closeness & connection that will keep you together through the teen years ahead.

I’m just sending you a virtual hug. You sound knackered!!!

Yes YABU. Didn’t sleep train mine & they managed it in time. God forbid I attempted putting us all through he stress of sleep training - someone would’ve lost something important like sanity/empathy/self esteem. I’m sorry your children aren’t sleeping well yet. Sleep training might’ve made things better, or maybe far worse.

I put a fair amount of effort into trying to sleep train my older dc. It didn't work, they did cry a lot and it was only around about 9-12 months they didn't need me any more.

The younger dc I didn't bother. They co-slept, bf whenever they wanted in the night and virtually never disturbed my sleep. It was also around 9-12 months when they were able to self-settle.

Same result, a tonne less hassle and distress just letting them do it in their own time.

Sorry to disagree but my daughter didn’t sleep through until she was 3.5. No self help books or routine did anything. I breastfed until she was 1 and I genuinely believe this played a part as my friends who even part bottle fed had easier night times. All children are different and so some parents are unlucky. My dd now sleeps through but I can tell you when I was at work and she wasn’t I felt how you feel now. No easy fixes.

The best advice I would give any parent of a new born (I don't, as people don't like unsolicited advice) is to put your baby down awake and allow them to learn to sleep without being in your arms. This is the advice I would give too and is the essence of sleep training - nothing to do with leaving tiny babies to scream. Also understand that not every grunt and whimper is a cry - learn to distinguish going to sleep chuntering. I realised what I should have done with my first when I had my second - leaving him to grizzle for a few minutes while I attended to the over-indulged PFB and going back to find he’d dropped off on his own. It’s easy to see with hindsight what you should have done OP, but I would never offer unsolicited advice to any parent - you only have to look at this thread to see why not.

Hi PenelopeChipShop, I was wondering how was your relationship was before you husband left, could the bad atmosphere contribute to them not sleeping great? I'm hoping it will now improve over time.

What would you say to parents of babies who don't just whimper a bit and then sleep? Those of us who had babies that quickly ramp up to apoplectic and then take an age to calm down? Is there some magic step that we're missing?

Just to add that he was breastfed and woke up throught the night for milk up until he was 3 1/2 also. I was knackered but I wouldn't change a thing and will 100% do the same with ny next child.

I think all kids are different! I sleep trained my oldest 2 dcs, and it worked fine until they reached age 2 when all that went out the window! DC1 went through a phase of wanting to sleep with us all the time and DC2 (currently age 2) is going through a phase of frequently waking up crying.
However, DC3 is 14 weeks old and an absolute super star sleeper. She’s far too young for me to even think about sleep training but she just seems to be much more settled than the other 2, already sleeping through the night some nights, if not she usually only wakes once. I can’t think of anything I’ve done differently this time. I think people just need to do what’s right for them.

I never “trained” either of my boys and they are both great sleepers. Not bragging at all, just saying I’d not even heard of sleep training....

I physically and psychologically could not ley my dc cry. Sleep training was not for us. But eventually they slept fine.

Maybe fresh air, full tummies, exercise before last nightly meal, some sleep baby wash with lavender in nice warm bath and a steady sleep routine with reading them a book or two? in that order?
After the above, I would shhh them, whisper good night and sing them lullabies. (Lucky dogs didn't howl, I sing badly).

It's not new parents to talk to, you need to find your own way. Hopefully not by ignoring cries.

I sleep trained. Dc1 was a great sleeper anyway but dc2 was less so. Did the gradual retreat, shushing stuff etc...worked a dream. They both have always slept through the night...a good 10-12 hours. I really need my sleep and strongly believe children need to be well rested especially once they are at school.

What would you say to parents of babies who don't just whimper a bit and then sleep? I’d say eliminate all obvious causes of distress - so nappy changed, make sure they’re fed and winded, soothing cuddle, song, stroke - whatever you give as sleep cues - and put them down calm. Whimpering, grizzling, chuntering is all ok, ramping up a gear I’d return for a tummy rub, but leave the child in it’s cot, apoplectic screaming is obviously not something to ignore, Parents of more than one child (I have a friend who has just had twins) often have to leave one to cry to deal with another - I think as a parent you learn to gauge the different cries when that’s all you have to go on. No one of any age gets into bed and falls immediately to sleep so you have to give your child a chance to nod off on his own. Fine to go back for reassurance, but not to rock, or worse still feed, your LO to sleep. To begin with you might have to go back a lot - gradually it will be less. Co-sleeping is something else entirely - not judging anyone who does I just think it’s a whole other subject.

I just want to say I think you sound.lively and I love your OP. You write beautifully, maybe You should write your own parenting book which is honest and based on reality rather than the usual patronising idiots who don't even have children.

Sorry lovely, bloody autocorrect. Too knackered to be lively 😀

YABU because you don’t know for sure it would’ve helped! I have 3 kids, 1st was a dream sleeper, second was poor & third even worse! Each to their own, I couldn’t do controlled crying for a young baby personally, but I wouldn’t want someone ‘warning’ me that I should do it, there’s enough pressure on parents these days.

"nappy changed, make sure they’re fed and winded, soothing cuddle, song, stroke - whatever you give as sleep cues - and put them down calm." Yes, obviously all that would have been done first, I was hoping for some other step that no one had ever told me. A tummy rub for mine increased the crying, rather than settled them. Maybe I have defective children or perhaps I didn't do the steps you describe correctly.

So instead I committed your cardinal sin and fed them to sleep (!), and co-slept. Worked brilliantly for me, two children that now can fall asleep on their own and sleep all night.

Mine woke every hour until her 3rd birthday.. literally! Every night. I didn't sleep train. She's 6 now and has slept for 12hrs+ every night apart from a few nights with sickness since 3.5yrs.
So glad I didn't have anyone dishing out advice like that which would have been irrelevant to my child. No rod for my back.. lots of my friends who's children did sleep at that age because they sleep trained wake up now and get into their bed or wake up at 5am etc. They are all different.

A friend gave me similar advice before I got pregnant and I am so glad I took it! I came under huge pressure from elsewhere to attachment parent and I’m so glad I ignored that advice. I’ve never really had to ‘sleep train’ as such but I observed from the beginning and didn’t pounce at the first whimper. It meant I learnt when DD was actually hungry and fed her then. About half the time as a newborn/baby she would sigh (or fart!!) and then turn her head the other way and go back to sleep. If I’d pounced on her at the first sound or movement she’d have woken up more and never learnt to connect her sleep cycles. I’d have taught her to wake frequently.

So, yes, she was sleeping six hours through at six weeks and eleven hours at five months. It made a HUGE difference to my sanity levels that she did this. She’s now nearly 2.5 years and sleeps 11-12 hours every night, and has been for the last almost two years. She’s still bf too but I found that didn’t have to mean I was feeding thru the night for months and years on end like some extended bfers would have you believe.

DD has very strong attachments to us and is very happy and confident so it doesn’t seem to have affected her attachment etc. Many of the attachment parented kids I’ve come across are clingy and very dependent on their parents, even at age six+.

HV on radio 4 said that a high percentage (80%) of babies were capable of sleeping for eight hours at three months but parents (often nervous or inexperienced) didn’t encourage them to do this, therefore they learnt to wake at regular intervals.

Marketing- sell a product which is needed, if there is no need create a need, by making people think it is normal for children to sleep all night in a separate bed in a separate room, even when we ourselves often sleep in the same bed as our loved one. Then offer advice, books, breastmilk substitutes to people who desperately need sleep and hope. ££
Ignore the fact humans are carry mammals, we need support as a larger group to raise a child, we need help to regain skills to support breastfeeding. Leaving a child to cry will probably inflict damage and stress but it's about balance, setting boundaries and sticking to them will help the children in future. Rewarding for progress and other strategies seem to be more effective in my experience.