To think women don't love their children more than men?

[whalewhatsallthisthen]

So I started back at work last month. My baby is 6 months old. My partner is at home - he has actually given up work. I really enjoy my job and I am quite enjoying being back in the adult world and having more control over my day again, although I really miss my baby of course.

But I am being bombarded with questions from almost everyone, including colleagues and family, about whether I will be working part time and why I am not working part time. Frankly, I am working full time to keep a roof over my family's head and also because I have ambitions for promotion and part time isn't compatible with that.

Why don't men get this kind of pressure when they return to work? They are just expected to get on with it as far as I can see.

Aibu to think that men don't love their children any less than women, so there is no reason to assume women are the primary caregivers and are all heartbroken to be back at work?

@callies I've just read some of your posts again. A first I was angry but now I just feel sad. If that's your experience of men then you're seriously missing out. The men I know adore their children irrespective of their feelings towards their mum.
The men I know have always been equal parents to their children and have a string bond. You can't just switch that off

Maybe the question to be asked is why more men do this. Or why we see it as more. Just like with why women get questioned and demonized for the very thought of going back to work early yet no one gives it a second thought that men do.

Its all part if the same bias and culture which is changing but slowly. It wouldn't surprise Me if it took a 100 years for it to become balanced or even cross the 50℅ line. As we are dealing with a generational type attitude. That has to slowly trickle down to change.

In the same way it is easier for men to walk away, it is harder for women to talk about regretting having children or not having that overarching love and devotion to their children that society automatically expects/ places on a mother.

In my world I've seen an equal mix of fathers who have walked away/ reduced contact beyond their actual abilities and women who make every step hard and the man have to fight for every scrap given.

Whale yanbu to think that. But our society still does think that. And it is all linked together with gender pay gap, expectations of the family dynamic etc. It is changing but very slowly.

I hope I have articulated myself well. I'm not always very good at getting across my thougts/ views in a coherant and well constructed manner.

Actually in thinking about it, it is true that in general women do love their kids more that men but obviously it is not universal. But I do not agree that men’s love of their children is related to the love of their children’s mother. I have seen too many examples of the opposite to agree with that. It is really culturally frowned upon here in Ireland for men to lose contact with their children from what I have seen. Reallly frowned upon. People would absolutely judge. Everybody knows everybody so word getting around that you are a shit father sting. I think there is less judgement around that in the UK simply because it is bigger and people are more immune.

Not paying for children is another matter, that is far, far more common. Being more selfish and getting away with far less social expectations than the children’s mothers, well definitely that happens here as it does in all patriarchal societies or in other words all societies.

But loving them and being involved with them is definitely far more common than not here.

I think it depends what you think love is.

Personally I don’t think love is compatible with selfishness. If you are consistently putting your wants ahead of someone else’s needs, that’s not love IMO. Some people think love is as simple as time spent or involvement. I don’t agree with that at all. Men do seem to be more selfish regarding their kids (you see it all the time on here with men and their ‘hobbies’).

I have to agree that I find it offensive to imply that working has anything to do with how much you love your kids. I’m a SAHM and I absolutely hate being pitted against WOHM mums like this. No I do not believe I love my kids more than a working mum, I do not believe a SAHD loves his kids more than DH loves our kids.

Men only love their children as long as they love the child’s mother. It’s as simple as that.

Anyone with half a brain knows this is bollocks. Especially as someone whose father fought (and eventually, won) for custody (back in the 70's when it was called that)

However

I do think - and I'm going to be doing that sweeping generalisation thing here - that most men are inherently more selfish than women. I say this from observation of every single relationship I have seen break down, in the last five to ten years years between two parents. Relationships where I have been friends with both parties. In a few cases, i have been utterly shocked with the way that the men have behaved (obviously towards the women, but mostly towards their offspring). Really really appalled in fact.

I don't doubt that both men and women love their children equally, but men (most men, again the sweeping generalisation) are more inclined to put their own needs before the needs of their children.

Tell everyone you identify as a male and therefore you are questioning why they are asking you these questions!

@biscuit only as strange as asking mum surely?
Not at all, why would it be strange asking a mum, the man doesn't get the same level of paternity leave, it'd be a very strange question to ask a mum. The vast majority of people, it is the dad who works while the mum either gets maternity leave or becomes a sahm.

I have to agree that I find it offensive to imply that working has anything to do with how much you love your kids. I’m a SAHM and I absolutely hate being pitted against WOHM mums like this. No I do not believe I love my kids more than a working mum,

I wholeheartedly agree with you (wohm here.) Its one of the very few regular arguments I see on here that really pisses me off. We all (or the vast majority of us) have the constraints of our own circumstances and we do what we deem best for our own family units.

I'd actually quite like to return to ft work and have dp work pt. Unfortunately he can't in his industry and we can't afford the child care for me to be pt

@biscuit how about we just don't ask all and accept that people have made the best decision for them and their family?

It really annoyed me that I had people tell me how awful it was that I had to come back full time. DH was in a office down the corridor yet nobody asked him.

And it was awful it was fabulous and I didn't have to I chose to.

*wasn't

@Blaablaablaa If only. I wish people would keep quiet about anything to do with when you return to work/how many hours you work etc.

Some of us make choices, some of us don't have a choice, and if you're in the latter camp it gets annoying as hell when people keep saying 'you'll change your mind when the baby is here, everything changes then' or questions you on your choices when you return to work.

blabla people SHOULD keep quiet about why people go back to work, it's none of their business. However it's understandable that most won't question the father, why would they. How much paternity leave do they get these days. I can see that you find it annoying questioning you but i can't see why you think they'd question the father, the majority of fathers go back straight after paternity leave.

biscuitraider, one of the people who asked me was a father who took 5 months parental leave but returned full time. So perhaps it's not quite as simple as you imply

I'm not implying anything, i'm stating facts. MOST people would presume a father to go back to work soon after a birth. How can such a reasonable statement be worthy of a contradiction..

I really don't know. It would seem natural that women love their children more because throughout our evolutionary history we've been the ones closest to them and if we didn't love them they'd starve and die. But on the other hand there are loads of men who, when given the chance to be close and care for their kids, absolutely adore them.

I think humans in general love strategically. So if you can love a child that you know isn't going to be taken away from you, you do. Infanticide is part of that strategy of abandoning a baby that is not likely to survive and look how some mothers treat their daughters in cultures where girls are not valued and will eventually leave anyway.

Humans are complex. It's hard to have a clear cut answer.

@biscuit but they only way we will stop people asking and judging women on their working patterns and not men is by pointing out how ridiculous and unnecessary it is.

This can be applied to lots of things that are said to women. The Twitter account manwhohasitall demonstrates this perfectly.

I'd just like to point out that just because most children end up living with the mother after divorce doesn't neccesarily mean the mother loves them more, or at all. There's been plenty of stories on here about cold uncaring mothers, and I'm sure on many other forums.
Having said that, my ex has little contact with our youngest child (who happens to be autistic) and I don't know why really. When he's with her he seems to be living and connected with her, but when he's not he seems to have a sense of detatchment, as if out if sight, out of mind. Would I feel a level of detatchment if I wasn't with her constantly?
In my ex's case, I feel he learnt it from his own family. While he knows his Dad loves him, he wasn't a hands on dad at all, and he wasn't really involved in his day to day life. Our eldest son has made a point of being different, he's very involved in his children's care and their lives. Even so, he's openly said he would hate to be a SAHP, he enjoys going out to work and the structure and purpose that brings.

I think humans in general love strategically. So if you can love a child that you know isn't going to be taken away from you, you do. Infanticide is part of that strategy of abandoning a baby that is not likely to survive and look how some mothers treat their daughters in cultures where girls are not valued and will eventually leave anyway.

Very thought provoking.

Blabla you won't ever stop people from being arsey, it's like pissing in the wind. Everyone gets judged for something, no matter what you do, someone somewhere will have a problem with it. I just let them get on with it, tomorrow they'll be talking about someone else.

@biscuit unfortunately it is an uphill struggle but its something I struggle to ignore when it's right in front of me.

YANBU OP. My brother spent thousands of £ and 2 years in court when his Ex stopped him seeing his DD. His wife went back to work 8 weeks post partum with 5 heir DS and he took the rest of the parental leave. When it was up, he didn't want to go back to work full time and so set up a business from home so he could remain with his DS and be there for his DD anytime she wanted to call in.

I do think that socialisation plays a part. My dad became a SAHD and PT childminder when my mum went back into education and FT work and my SiL's dad had shared custody of her when he and his wife split up, so it wasn't seen as a big thing for DB to do.

When I had DS2 my DP loved him so much that he lost the ability to speak and sang all of his words instead for about 6 weeks.

Men only love their children as long as they love the child’s mother. It’s as simple as that.
What a load of bollocks. DS1's dad loves him completely 10 years after we split up. And my uncle got full custody of his biological and step children when he and their mum split. Yes, some men will leave without so much as a backward glance, but my experience is that they are few and far between.

Yanbu OP.

And much as it’s easy to point the finger at some men who procreate and then abandon their kids equally true that some women are very controlling over their children and insist on being the one who stops/reduces work and spends more time with the children.

In an ideal world, mums and dads would be considered truly equal parents. However I think we’re a long way off that, and I don’t think it’s as simple as ‘blaming’ one gender.

Yep - patriarchy
Have you also noticed that a father has to do very little to be classed as a good Dad while mothers need to do very little to be classed as a bad Mum?

My friend the other day was telling me how lucky DS is as he has a good Dad. I'm thinking, well he has a good Mum too??

A 'good' Dad need only change the odd nappy and give the odd bath. A 'good' mum needs to BF/FF/do cc/ not do cc/return to work to be a role model/not return to work and be a sahp/co-sleep/put baby in own room etc etc etc
It sucks and people can fuck off.

Yes my dad was seen as a good dad. He did the bare minimum apart from playing with us sometimes.