Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think parenting a wilful child can be really miserable?

256 replies

Hackedoffwithit · 18/04/2018 19:38

I have namechanged so I can say what I want without reproach.

I'm so tired of parenting a wilful 7 year old DS. I have tried so many approaches, so many ways of parenting him - we have had SO many discussions about it that I can hardly bear to talk about it with DP again - and I have taken so much on board about my own personality, my failings and made huge efforts to overcome whatever I'm contributing to it... and yet...it gets us nowhere.

He's a great kid - funny, bright, emotionally really astute. But he's also utterly disrespectful to me quite a lot (far more than DP), unmovable once he wants something and if denied, can go on and on and on and on - never giving up - which is so exhausting and makes me want to shoot myself. And sometimes he's rude a lot to me, at home and out, so rude that despite taking the approach of asking him gently to 'be nice, use a nice tone,' I want to scream in his face that I'm his mum, show some respect.

Today I had enough and snapped after several things. Sent him to bed without reading. He was upset but even though he understood why, he couldn't let go of the fact that we'd denied him reading time. He's apologised but only because he really wants to read. He's still calling out about it now, 45 mins on.

When he's good, he's AMAZING. And don't get me wrong, I absolutely love him to bits.

But I find him so challenging and such hard work. It's just really upsetting. I feel stuck in treacle with it.

OP posts:
Highandmightyfine · 09/05/2018 20:22

Bookmarked this thread ages ago and finally read it through - its been a breath of fresh air, I have found my people! sniff

One of the best approaches we have to our v. v. challenging DS (who, like others have described, is also highly intelligent, gentle and lovely aswell as insanely difficult at times) comes from the 'Nurtured Heart' approach. Basically it says some kids are extreme energy seekers and look for intense connection with adults and given that adults are naturally more intense (more eye contact, louder voices, more talking, more touch etc) when responding to negative behaviour than positive, this can result in cycles of difficult behaviour. So the idea is to maximise the energy/connection they get through good behaviour and totally withdraw connection/de-energise when dealing with bad behaviour.

This has made a massive difference in our home. DS is a serious boundary pusher (we've dealt with some quite unsafe and distressing situations in our time) and it has really helped us to respond in a controlled, measured way to very difficult behaviour. It's been a game-changer for us.

For example, if DS refuses to do as he's asked I'll totally withdraw attention until he's done it. I won't shout at him or nag him or cajole him, I'll just move on with what I'm doing and won't answer questions or have any further conversations until it's been done. Depending on how defiant he's been (ie. if he's deliberately disobeyed and blatantly watched me for a reaction whilst doing it, which is not as rarely as I'd like!) then I'll also put a consequence in place, but I do that in a really objective, matter of fact way too with no discussion or emotion "I'm glad you've finally taken your plate out. I know you were deliberately ignoring me, and that's disrespectful - that means your brother will be choosing the TV programme. Now let's move on."

Happy to talk over PM if it helps!

Sadsnake · 09/05/2018 20:24

Mine is the same...read up on autism..x

golondrina · 10/05/2018 08:33

Mine's willful but definitely not autistic.

Corneliafunk · 10/05/2018 09:49

As a Mum who had a child (girl) like what you describe, I feel I can honestly say we tried everything imaginable to introduce some calm into our family life. However nothing seemed to work – not the parenting programmes, not the ‘experts’ who visited, not the books, not the endless discussions I had with my husband, family and friends over what could be done.
I came to the end of my absolute tether when, in getting the kids ready for school and myself for work one morning, my then 9.5 year old daughter refused to clean her teeth – it wasn’t a simple refusal of course, but a full on melt down needless-to-say. And I just couldn’t bear it any longer.

I took her and her younger brother to school and then went on to see her teacher and explain how bad life was because of her behaviour. Fortunately the teacher listened and said she had seen some signs of this in class – not much at all, but just enough to give a slight inkling as to what I was talking about. This was a breath of fresh air as her pre-school teachers could never understand what I was saying when trying to explain even back then what the situation was like.

As a result it was arranged that my daughter would spend some class time out of the room with a retired teacher who helped out in the school. This person would work with her and look at a variety of things – resilience, the thinking hats, a range of stuff. The change, while not overnight, was remarkable. My daughter is now 12 and when I ask her to think back as to why she was and she was and what changed things, she becomes embarrassed when reflecting on how she used to be.

During the time she had to leave the class for a session each fortnight with the retired teacher it became known it was for ‘anger management issues’. This was embarrassing for her as her friends and the rest of the class all got to know, but I believe forced her to examine her behaviour in a way that nothing else previously had. It is not normally ideal to embarrass a child like this, but the situation wasn’t normal. We didn’t set out to embarrass her; however her behaviour was embarrassing in itself.
I always thought our personalities were different and that was part of our difficulty (although of course she would be difficult for my husband too), however once her behaviour improved I could see how much in common we had and how enjoyable it was to spend time with her. Now she is neat – but I don’t think I will ever forget those very challenging years. I wouldn’t be surprised if I had a bit of PTSD from them to be honest!
(Sorry for the length of my post)

TheClitterati · 10/05/2018 10:25

@Highandmighty - what you have said is very interesting and rings some bells with me. I have been ignoring the persistent badgering to a certain extent but I will use more vigorous efforts to follow your advice and see how that goes.

@Cornelia re PTSD - oh yes I can relate. Grin
We had a dreadful morning with DD2 getting ready for school on Tuesday (refusing to dress, wash, teeth - do anything basically) I did loose my cool a bit - and I'm still feeling traumatised by the whole experience (even though we swiftly moved on).

Highandmightyfine · 10/05/2018 12:53

DS is the same, Clitterati. I used to get really annoyed that he wouldn't accept my answer until I realised that I was seeing his badgering as a threat to my decision/boundary when actually it wasn't like that at all. He could whine all he liked but I wasn't changing my mind and the best way to communicate him that wasn't to keep explaining it verbally but to enforce the boundary by totally moving on, regardless of whether he did or not. Once I realised that I had no obligation to respond or reply to whining/begging, it became surprisingly easy to tune out!

deadringer · 10/05/2018 12:56

I have two of them op! Other 3 are fine thank goodness. Thankfully they are grown up now, all I can say is hang in there. Yanbu

TheClitterati · 10/05/2018 13:34

Yes if I say no or respond at all she just keeps repeating over and over. She NEVER gets her way - but still does it. It happened last night at bedtime. What I am saying - it happens nearly every.single.day!

i will determine to say my reply once and then totally disengage!!

Mammasmitten · 10/05/2018 13:41

I must say even though I have only read half way through this thread I just want to say thank-you Hackedoffwithit for creating this thread. I have had a very bad day today and felt I really could have been a better parent. Many of these comments have been very helpful. I feel a bit better. It's reassuring to read posts where children have grown up into wonderful adults despite the difficult younger years. So many helpful suggestions and different ways of doing things. And it's nice to be reminded that we don't have to be perfect, we can be human, same deal with our dc and difficult times can pass. Star

taratill · 10/05/2018 14:07

I have a stubborn ASD boy but there is much more to him being autistic than just the stubbornness.

Nothing that the OP has said is suggestive of autism being a factor.

It is possible to be stubborn and wilful without an SEN.

That being said some of the techniques I use with my ASD son might be useful.

He has very clear boundaries and consequences if those boundaries are crossed. If he understands that he is being rude to you and continues to do so then there is nothing wrong with a defined and reasonable consequence to that, particularly if it happens in public. For my son the line is swearing. There is an automatic punishment for that and it has really helped. My son is often rude without realising he is (due to literal mind) but I take the time to teach him that. I don't want him to grow up being disrespectful of people (especially women).

I hope your DP is being supportive in handling the behaviour as a united front is helpful.

Fiddlydoodlekins · 10/05/2018 14:20

I don't get somethings on here. I'm trying not to be judgemental but when I read things like "spent days inside as wouldn't wear sunscreen" I just think..??? If my child made a huge fuss about wearing sunscreen to the point we couldn't go outside id of just pinned him down eventually and put it on him! Isn't that normal parent behaviour? You are the boss and if you are just consistent with that approach they soon learn and you never have to go to such extremes? I think the parents personalities have a lot to do with it. I see my sister dealing with my nephew sometimes and just think wtf? But it's just not in her nature to be "the boss" but if you look at nature and the animal kingdom, that's how it goes. Kids need a leader. You are the leader of the pack. But my child definitely isn't scared of me or anything. Being the leader isn't being a bully, it's natural?

Treesybreezy · 10/05/2018 17:43

Fiddleydoodlekins how much force are you willing to use?

My dd does have SEN so it's not quite the same as others (i.e. I need to remember to be mindful of sensory issues causing the stubborn, wilful behaviour etc). She hates getting washed. She has hit and bit me in the past over times she really has to get washed. Would you have hit and bit back? Harder because you are bigger?

greenlantern1 · 10/05/2018 17:53

What strikes me as quite interesting, is that the people who come on and say they can't believe it...why aren't we, parents, showing the kids who is boss/being a leader/saying no is no...they are the ones who don't really have wilful kids. Because there is a massive difference between a child who sometimes plays up and a child who is regularly, almost habitually confrontational and nay-saying.

And then, unless you want a life of total effing misery, you have to find strategies other than saying NO and pressing them to do what you want.

greenlantern1 · 10/05/2018 17:53

Sorry, it is me, the person who posted in the first place - Hackedoffiwithit

TheClitterati · 10/05/2018 21:34

Yes I agree @greenlantern1
Going by dd1 I could claim to be the worlds most amazing parent. Then wilful stubborn completely different dd2 came along and wow - different game, different ballpark, different plane!

I think Int

TheClitterati · 10/05/2018 21:34

Oops!

Into you encounter a wilful child you really have no idea.

TheClitterati · 10/05/2018 21:37

@Highandmightyfine I used the "ask once and withdraw attention" Method with dd tonight with great results. 👍🏼👍🏼

tootiredtospeak · 10/05/2018 21:52

Hmmm I have often wondered if my autistic DS is so strongwilled by nature or part of his condition. I have three kids 2 DS 1 DD my first born is stubborn willful sees everything in black and white will not/ can not see things from others point of view and although not outwardly rude will go on and on and on about something if he thinks hes right. Its exhausting and as he rarely shows great emotion its hard to connect with him. In contrast the little ones are easygoing good natured and very lovable.
I feel guilty sometimes that I find him hard work but he finds me hard work much preferring my DP and his Dads company. At 16 ive come to accept it and we rub along much better. The fact your questioning it makes you a good parent but we are only human. Keep going youll get there my biggest piece of advice is consistency. Always enforce any rules you set down otherwise you will regret it.

1981m · 10/05/2018 21:56

I could have written this about my 5 yo. He's very similar. He has an answer for everything, cares little about consequences, lies without guilt and is very rude. I try and be positive too but it's exhausting. I go through long periods of time where I don't want to spend time with him and then feel guilty for that. He's brought me to the brink many times and I despair of him frequently

No words of advice but you have my sympathy.

TheClitterati · 10/05/2018 22:03

Dd2 is dreadful for grinding her teeth. Any other wilful intense kids doing that?

BrownTurkey · 10/05/2018 22:32

Keep going, you sound like you are doing great. I have no experience, but I was musing that instead of picking my battles I might go for a boot camp approach - incorporating some of the ideas above (eg it will always be no if he is not respectful), but prepare myself for a real concerted effort to implement understandable boundaries and encourage positive behaviour, with no mixed messages. Don’t plan too much, just outings that can feature as learning experiments and rewards. I sould expect it to be painful but potentially have good results. You’d have to both be on board.

idlikemoresleep · 10/05/2018 22:44

I have an 8 year old DD and she's like Jekyll and Hyde sometimes. She's fiercely independent and will argue about anything and everything even if she knows she's wrong!
I actually quite admire how head strong and tenacious she is I just dread when it's directed at me 😂🙈
She's lovely 85% of the time but when she doesn't get her own way she can be rude and disrespectful towards me (although she doesn't discriminate, she's that way to whoever has offended her!)
My approach is to not let her bother me. If I get drawn into an argument with her then she will not back down and we end up battling forever so I scrapped trying to win an argument with her and now if she is rude/ disrespectful or "tantrums" at not getting her own way then she gets sent to her room (or another room away from me/ her brother) to "think" about a better way to handle it.
I do think often their emotions get the better of them, they know they're in the wrong but they haven't quite grasped how to deal with situations so react this way. 9/10 she comes back and says sorry, often it's in the hope of having her punishment revoked (as in the reading time given back etc) but I always stand my ground with things like that. If she then tantrums again the process is repeated until she accepts that to get the outcome she wants then her behaviour has to warrant it first.
If all else fails I lock her in the garden and turn the radio up 😬

ZenNudist · 10/05/2018 22:51

I want to read more of this thread because it could have been written for me. Ds (7) plays one-upmanship on punishments such that if I say that something is going to be withdrawn for example no weekend treats then he will escalate it and dump one of his favourite toys in the bin.

Tonight we hit a new low and he accidentally kicked me in the teeth. He then screamed that my teeth that hurt his foot!!

I also spoke to his teacher who fastened on to the idea that DS behaves better for his father. Whilst it's true that DH does managed to get better behaviour he has physical strength on his side. He doesn't use it but it helps where lack of physical strength means DS wilfully ignores me.

Tonight we had only 5 minutes to read a bit I would have read for longer but I said at 5 minutes to ( later than usual) bedtime come on getting to bed will have a story but DS wanted to do something else and he continue doing that. Then he was gutted because I wasn't reading to him as it had gone well past bedtime. He was knackered. I had tons of other things to do tonight lots of chores. DS just pissed my time away anyway that I would otherwise have spent reading him a story. By throwing himself around very dramatically and creating the aforementioned scene.

I end up cuddling him and putting him to bed with lots and lots of toys and he was crying his eyes out and got lots of kisses out of me but I'd really rather that we haven't had to go through so much hell just to get there.

Sorry long.

Fiddlydoodlekins · 10/05/2018 23:06

I can't comment what I'd do if my child had Sen because I understand that I'd be unsure how much was related- controlled by that and probably feel worried about whether they had the capacity to understand etc. However if there were no Sen issues then no I wouldn't bite back! I would fix the arms to stop them hitting / biting me, because I am strong enough to do that. I'd remove them from the situation, put them in their bedroom or something and I'd carry on for as long as it took until they were willing to calm down,say sorry and do what they need to do. Yes, I would prove that I am stronger than them. My sister used to allow her 1 yr old baby to attack her!? How? He was tiny. Fix the arms and put them down, don't allow it. She was scared of that baby and still is to a certain extend. Life is one long negotiation for her. You've gotta let it explode sometimes and be the winner. They are just testing you. Kids throwing themselves on supermarket floors etc is just nonsense. Let them do it once, follow it through, abandon your shopping, put that child over your shoulder if need be and leave the shop. Straight home, into bedroom, see it through, don't give in until tantrum stops. Talk it through, let them say sorry and they won't do it again. It didn't get the required result. You see this stuff in super nanny etc all the time, everyone knows consistency works but it doesn't come natural to some people. So much drama all day long. Kids without boundaries are confused and a tidal wave of emotions. Be like the animals I say. Be there for them and love them but they do need to watch, learn, keep up and know how to enjoy themselves without ruining life for everyone else!

Highandmightyfine · 11/05/2018 09:03

Fiddly, I hear you - it can be difficult to comprehend how these situations can arise if you've never been in them. Before I had DS I would have said exactly the same - if you don't have experience of a child like the ones we're describing, it's hard to understand that some children are so, so resistant to parental influence.

You say;
Kids throwing themselves on supermarket floors etc is just nonsense. Let them do it once, follow it through, abandon your shopping, put that child over your shoulder if need be and leave the shop. Straight home, into bedroom, see it through, don't give in until tantrum stops. Talk it through, let them say sorry and they won't do it again. It didn't get the required result.

I have a few questions/observations for you;
What if this child was 5/6? How long do you let them scream for? How physical do you let them get? How would you throw them over your shoulder whilst also trying to push a buggy with a toddler, negotiating them across the car park trying desperately to hold on whilst the elder child tries to run away? And how on earth, at that age, do you propose to wrestle them into their car seat? And even if you manage it, how do you deal with them popping the seat buckle every time you clip it in? How do you deal with the younger child seeing you be slapped and pinched and punched as you try?

And then once you're home, how do you manage getting both kids out of the car safely and across a busy road, unlocking the door whilst still trying to keep both kids safe and stop the toddler from wandering into the road and the 5 year old from running away? And once you're in, how do you respond to the older child taking her shoes off and throwing them at your head, followed by every single thing she can get her hands on. You put her in her room, fine, but she comes straight out again. By this time the toddler is screaming and the things being thrown at you are barely missing him. How do you keep him safe whilst continuing to put your elder child back in her room (repeating it maybe 50-100 times)? Oh and what about the friends that are supposed to be coming over for lunch in 30 minutes?

And, most importantly, how do you manage all of this when the professionals working with you have warned you that physically preventing your child from attacking you in this way (ie. holding hands or pinning arms) may be construed as assault and result in social services involvement? (Yes, really)

And how many times would you be willing to go through with the above? How many family birthdays, days out, meals with friends, park trips, would you be willing to sacrifice? And how much fear and stress and rage are you willing to live with, day in day out? And how willing are you to let your younger children grow up in an environment of constant shouting and screaming and tussling? And how long will you let it carry on for before acknowledging that your approach isn't actually influencing your child and making a difference in the slightest to their choices.

Some children respond to the approach you've described after a few occasions. Great. But we are talking, for the most part, about kids with control issues for whom being 'in charge' trumps everything. Kids who regularly provoke their parents to engage in distressing and fruitless power struggles that look to control the dynamic of the whole family. And you seem to imply that refusing to engage in these power struggles is incompatible with consistency ("everyone knows consistency works but it doesn't come natural to some people") and boundaries ("Kids without boundaries are confused").

This is absolutely untrue. I am teaching my kids that their parents are in control and in charge. We write the rule-book, and because of that we don't need to prove ourselves by responding to every invitation to a power struggle that they issue us. But precisely because I'm in charge, I can ignore the provocation in the moment, wait for them to self-regulate and issue a significant consequence when I see fit.

I appreciate that you don't fully understand the kind of behaviours and attitudes we're talking about here. But it would be a kindness to take our word for it that we are not parents without boundaries.

Swipe left for the next trending thread