AIBU to think parenting a wilful child can be really miserable?

[Hackedoffwithit]

I have namechanged so I can say what I want without reproach.

I'm so tired of parenting a wilful 7 year old DS. I have tried so many approaches, so many ways of parenting him - we have had SO many discussions about it that I can hardly bear to talk about it with DP again - and I have taken so much on board about my own personality, my failings and made huge efforts to overcome whatever I'm contributing to it... and yet...it gets us nowhere.

He's a great kid - funny, bright, emotionally really astute. But he's also utterly disrespectful to me quite a lot (far more than DP), unmovable once he wants something and if denied, can go on and on and on and on - never giving up - which is so exhausting and makes me want to shoot myself. And sometimes he's rude a lot to me, at home and out, so rude that despite taking the approach of asking him gently to 'be nice, use a nice tone,' I want to scream in his face that I'm his mum, show some respect.

Today I had enough and snapped after several things. Sent him to bed without reading. He was upset but even though he understood why, he couldn't let go of the fact that we'd denied him reading time. He's apologised but only because he really wants to read. He's still calling out about it now, 45 mins on.

When he's good, he's AMAZING. And don't get me wrong, I absolutely love him to bits.

But I find him so challenging and such hard work. It's just really upsetting. I feel stuck in treacle with it.

I honestly don't want to seem mean and I'm not showing off about my kids. Discipline is just something that came natural to me but I am dreadful at lots of other things, this is life. You would be able to observe my life and see somethings I did and say you are much better at- either by luck of from hard work. The problem with parenting is we are so defensive. It hurts so much to be told we are the problem or we are doing something wrong so we just avoid learning to look at others getting it right and copy them and those of us who think we can help avoid reaching out for the same reasons. I said I was good at disciplining my children but I'm sure you could teach me a thing or two about other aspects of child rearing. I'm bad at somethings too!. I believe I could handle all of the situations above but ideally the tests need to be over by 5-6. By this age "the look" should be enough. That looks means - the jokes are over, I'm serious and I will see it through if you don't stop. By 5-6 it would be harder for the reasons you've described but you've seen it in the TV, it can be done! Clear a week, get some child care for the little one? Don't go out until youve cracked some battles at home etc.
I'm honestly not showing off but truly it's hard to watch because the answers just seem so clear to me.
I feel for my sister, she's a fabulous Mum. So loving and engaging but her mind is frazzled and her boy is crying / tantruming and screaming far more than normal. This is her life, it's normal for her now. She just never sees it through. Her empathy is sky high for him and he manipulates it. I just wish I could say something/ help her/ transfer skills (I could do with some of her empathy)but that's not the way it is. But it's really sad because this little boy becomes harder to like.

Fiddlydoodlekins I agree with EVERY word that Highandmighty has written.

I'm glad you have easy going children who are easy to parent.

Where your child is inflexible (whether due to SN such as ASD or not ) then you being inflexible is a recipe for disaster. You have to be the adult by parenting according to their needs. A firm hand does not resolve everything.

I have an 11 year old with autism whose behaviour has improved precisely because I have been prepared to be flexible. Normal 'common sense' authoratitive parenting does not work with him. I tried it we were all miserable.

If you are interested then I'd suggest you read a book such as the 'Explosive Child', perhaps buy it for your sister and read it yourself first?

In the situation you stated above though I would stop at the car. I would take the kicks and punches if need be by holding enough to get second child plonked in front. Then I would hold that child in the back until they calmed down. Which would probably be about an hr as they're be raging as weren't used to it. I would keep reminding them they have a choice for me to let go by stopping. It would be horrendous but that's what I'd do. At the end they're be extremely exhausted and I'd go for the mother of all lectures and big sorry and cuddles and then move on. I'd do that again and again and again until they realised this is a waste of time.

Do you ever see an "explosive" puppy though? Or monkey or kitten? Cheekier ones - yes. Explosive - no. That's all I'm saying. I'm not going to post anymore because I don't want to hurt you or piss you off but I really believe you can change your situation whenever you want.

Ok Fiddly but it wouldn't necessarily work!

You are assuming the child has control over their tantrums. They often don't!

If I ever tried to restrain my child it would make matters way way worse.

You need to find the cause of the tantrum/ meltdown to make changes and you need to make the child feel safe.

Lecturing a young child/ SEN child also won't work, they won't hear you.

I really do recommend the Explosive Child. It was life changing.

Ok Fiddly you know best!!

You don't offend me at all. You are just completely ignorant to the fact that a firm hand doesn't solve everything, as are most parents who (oddly enough) don't have to deal with this on a day to day basis.

If you want to support your sister (which you say you do) you will be more flexible. You are the adult here after all.

Oh and the animal comparison is ridiculous. We are much more highly neurologically developed!

Which is why we converse and respond to stimmuli in different ways!

@Fiddlydoodlekins - with the greatest of respect, your posts are infuriating and very judgemental. You have no idea of what others are talking about on this thread if you think that a firm hand and holding down a child for an hour is what is required.

Thanks for such an eloquent post, @HighandMighty

Fiddly, I've not got much time but I'm going to try and respond to your points;

• Discipline is just something that came natural to me

Yes, me too. I'm very, very good at it.

• but ideally the tests need to be over by 5-6.

Yes, ideally. But with some children they aren't. For whatever reason; SEN, early trauma, inconsistent or poor early years parenting, difficult personalities, whatever, some parents are dealing with children of this age or older who still display very challenging behaviour , yet can't be treated as toddlers because they are heavier, stronger, quicker, louder, more vicious, more intelligent, whatever. Those are the children we are talking about on this thread, and you won't help anyone by saying "it should be over by now".

• Clear a week, get some child care for the little one?

Genuinely a good idea and one I thought about myself, but this would never have worked with DS - he was an angel when alone and incredibly challenging in a sibling dynamic. These things have to be worked out in real-time, whilst also managing things like arriving at school on time, being in for the postman, timing the toddler's nap, doing the food shop etc.

• Her empathy is sky high for him and he manipulates it.

I am not advocating for parents to allow themselves to be manipulated by children. I am not advocating for a consequence free approach. My children always get consequences for bad behaviour, always. Bad behaviour never benefits them in any way. I'm talking about how those consequences are administered makes a difference with willful children. I also want to remind you that we're not talking about 1 year old here. I share your surprise that your sister allows her 1 year old to hit her - gently and safely preventing it at this age is easy and should be done. We are talking about older children whose behaviour is much, much harder to manage.

• I would take the kicks and punches if need be Having done this myself over many, many months I can confirm that this is the worst thing you could do for your children's mental health and your relationship with them. Children should never be allowed to be in a position where they harm their parents, they don't want that power, they don't want to be able to cause that much hurt and chaos, they want you to set boundaries that prevent this from happening. That's why the parent having control over the dynamics of a situation before it gets to that point is so crucial. You also need to consider the fact that your child is getting increased attention and contact for bad behaviour and your younger child, having kept to all the rules, is being ignored.You also haven't responded to my question about the impact that has on the younger child.

• At the end they're be extremely exhausted and I'd go for the mother of all lectures and big sorry and cuddles and then move on

Ok, but what about the 50th time, when they said sorry again and promised they'd never do it again? And then it happened again he next day? If you could leave your friends house for the 50th time, holding your child for an hour while he hit and smacked you, whilst simultaneously supervising a younger sibling and do that 30, 50, 100 days in a row, hearing at the end each time that they were sorry and that promised never to do it again, and if you could do all that without resenting them for it or it harming your relationship with them, well then you're wasted on your easy-going kids

• I really believe you can change your situation whenever you want

And this is the part that brings me joy...because I have, that's exactly why I'm posting here! DS was a boy I was convinced would be expelled, he exhibited an astonishing degree of aggression and was totally unresponsive to the most basic of boundaries (ie. don't run into the road, don't dangle out of the window). He was totally obsessed with rule-breaking and confrontation and it was worth more to him than anything. When I changed how I disciplined him (not stopped it, but changed how) he is now a different child, unrecognisable from how he once was. He's still challenging and still wilful but is 80% happier, calmer and more obedient than a year ago. He gets himself dressed is generally helpful, loving and kind, goes to bed without a fuss except for maybe once every few months, initiates doing his homework every week etc etc. So yes, I can change my situation and I have - that's why I'm here.

I'm not a super-parent and this isn't a magic bullet. I believe in consequences and discipline just as strongly as you do. I also recognise that way this is achieved needs to be different depending on the temperament of the child.

? That was quick. There are children with a strong willpower and focus who are not autistic. Please release the need to pigeonhole and label everyone.

Exactly this. I cannot believe people automatically suggest a child has autism or other needs when a parent posts about their behaviour as the Op has done.

Your posts are so excellent Highandmightyfine! But I fear they are falling on deaf ears.

The reason why people think of autism is that their own experiences with their autistic child resonate. Why shouldnt you suggest it may be an option its not offensive to have autism nor is it simply a label ( if only it was). It doesnt mean every wilful child is autistic of course but autism at its simplest is a collection of behaviours that are challenging often to others and frustrating/anxiety provoking for the individual experiencing them.

Highandmighty - your posts are SUPERB. Thank you. x

Do you ever see an "explosive" puppy though? Or monkey or kitten?

No, but then I don't see them using cutlery and wiping their bottoms either. The comparison between a highly neurologically advanced small human being and a cute little animal is ridiculous.

High and mighty- I would be very interested to know how you turned your child's behaviour around. How did you change how you disciplined him?

My ds is now 5 and isn't as bad as what you describe but he is extremely defiant and finds taking the word no or any variation of it very hard. He struggles with change and definitely struggles with control.

Tiddly- I actually used to agree with you and thought this consistency and always doing this would work but over time I realised it very much depends on the child. As ds got to 3 and beyond this didn't work. He became uneffected by the thinking step, going to bed early, being taken to his room. I did this time and time again, his behaviour was repeated no matter what I did. He didn't care because it was done too much. But I was trying to be consistent so I kept at it. It didn't effect him so I upped the stakes. He missed family outings to the circus and play dates. This didn't sink in either. This works for some children but not all, not the most defiant and determined. Not the ones like my ds who find it incredibly hard to control their anger. We ve had so many discussions about it, read books, he can tell me what he needs to do if he's feeling angry but he doesn't do it!

He definitely got to the point where it was attention and he loved it whether it was positive or negative.

Discipline came naturally to me (ha!) and my eldest child.

My youngest (now 9) was throwing things at me while I drove last week. And she undid her seatbelt for good measure.

Tiddly- you obviously have no idea what it's like having a 2yo and baby either. My ds was throwing tantrums continuously but it was impossible for me to do what you describe. I had a c-section so wasn't allowed to pick him up, was trying to breastfeed, had leaking breasts and was struggling with it, dd would scream every time we went in the car. She was a tricky baby. I found myself in many many terrible situations with terrible behaviour from ds. I had a pram, baby and everything else with me, was trying to potty train, it's not as simple as you describe.

But saying that, I do feel like that was the period ds behaviour got worse and where he learnt he could possibly get away with it which has possibly led to problems now he's 5. I physically and mentally didn't have the capacity to deal with it perfectly every.single.time. Which was multiple times a day, everyday.

I think most children find ways to drain away their parents' will to live. In my son's case he is a massive whiner and not infrequently a fun-vacuum.

It makes me sad sometimes, when I think how quickly his childhood is shooting by, to think how much of it he wastes behaving like an ass!

I am fairly sure that my 8 year old DD is not autistic as she is extremely social but she has a number of autistic-type traits including sensory issues with clothing and external temperatures and is prone to extreme tantrums when she is anxious about something. An earlier poster talked about their child deliberately trying to sabotage things they wanted to do such as going on an outing because by sabotaging it they were in control and this really rings true for my daughter.

Our older DD is very laid back and easy to parent and we had no real idea how to parent DD2 when her behaviour was so different. Punishments and reward charts made no difference and if we sent her to her room she would basically destroy the room and start hurting herself. Reading around techniques for helping children with autism (and Pathological Demand Avoidance in particular) and accepting that a lot of her behaviour was driven by anxiety about not being in control helped more than anything else and our house is a lot calmer now. We try to always give her a choice about things so that she feels in control and recognise in advance when a situation is going to cause anxiety and try and mitigate it. Things are definitely getting easier as she gets older - I think she really did not ever see herself as a small child and found it incredibly frustrating that she wasn't physically capable of doing the things she wanted to do.

Tawdry I've spent the last week with my DD 13 off school saying she wishes she was dead. I don't sit there thinking she's a fun vacumn & being an ass.

Sounds like a very different situation swingcity. Not really fair to compare the two.

I'll try and summarise briefly - there's lots I could say so happy to elaborate on something specific where necessary;

• Control/responsibility: I think that kids who love to be in control thrive on responsibility, so wherever possible I try and give it to him. If I'm popping upstairs and think the dynamics will change and he'll start upsetting his sister without my supervision, I'll tell him that he's 'in charge' of making sure that things are calm. He takes this very seriously and it gets him 'on side' as he'll then come and 'report' how things are going . Also getting him to help out with jobs (bringing shopping in, cleaning etc) rather than letting him direct himself when he usually gets into trouble!

• Withdrawing/ignoring

Withdrawing/ignoring doesn’t mean not addressing stuff - you absolutely address bad behaviour but you do it on your terms. Sounds crazy but ‘props’ are most helpful and changing the dynamics of the situation; leaving the room, focussing on playing with another sibling, turning away to do a job, getting on with something else (I swear this is why my house is so tidy!). The key is showing that your attention is totally elsewhere/on someone else until he can get back your attention by doing as he’s asked.

• Consequences:

We do give consequences for bad behaviour but we don't give specific warnings of what will/won’t happen. we expect him to do as he’s told and if he doesn't there's a consequence. He knows this and we expect him to make his choices based on this. Reason being that we felt that giving him the 'game plan' in advance just gives him more control over the dynamics rather than being clear that control belongs to us. My experience is that if you tell a child like DS what you think he should care about (TV, toys, whatever) he’ll not care on principle. Whereas waiting for them to reveal what they care about (Can I grate the cheese? Can I take my bike? etc) and fashioning the consequence around that makes it much more effective ("No, because you deliberately ignored me when I asked you to be safe with the scissors. The consequence is that you can't take your bike/grate the cheese because I can't be sure you'll be safe. Next time you can take your bike/grate the cheese if I can be sure you'll be safe.")

For example, tonight I asked DS not to throw a ball into next-doors garden. He heard me, and straight away did it anyway. I didn't shout at him or get exasperated, because immediately his focus would be on me and my anger (and he would have got emotionally worked up) rather than on his actions and the consequence. So I calmly told him that the consequence was that he needed to come inside for 15 minutes, and that he could either come in by himself or I could get him, but if I had to take him in myself that it would be 30 minutes inside. He came in pretty much immediately (pretty much a first for him) and pottered in the house while waiting for his ten minutes to be up. He went back outside and we had no more problems after that.

positive attention
making sure that all this happens in the context of lots of positive attention - otherwise the withdrawing/ignoring doesn't mean anything! We are big on negative consequences/punishment but also very big on nurture and praise and time together etc. I think this is why the ignoring etc works, because its in context.

Thanks for saying lovely things about my posts. I really hope it doesn't sound like I think I know it all or get it right always - I really don't. But it is nice to share some things I would have loved to have been told rather than found out the hard way, and it makes all the heartache even more worth it

High I'm another person who enjoyed your posts. My DD as a young child was different to your DS in some ways - less violently confrontational, more manipulative - but I could have written much of what you wrote especially about unsafe behaviour. We stopped taking her supermarket shopping after one particularly bloody incident involving her freezing her lips to a freezer cabinet, and as a pre-teen she once stole my emergency allergy medicine out of my handbag and ate it. Just two examples out of hundreds: sometimes I think it's a miracle we got through it intact.

What worked best was calmly withdrawing attention. Punitive arms races just made everyone miserable.

She improved massively once she went through puberty - as if a brain maturity switch had been pressed - and she is now a mature and likeable 17 year old :)

@Fiddly. Ha. Ha. Ha. You have no idea.