AIBU to think parenting a wilful child can be really miserable?

[Hackedoffwithit]

I have namechanged so I can say what I want without reproach.

I'm so tired of parenting a wilful 7 year old DS. I have tried so many approaches, so many ways of parenting him - we have had SO many discussions about it that I can hardly bear to talk about it with DP again - and I have taken so much on board about my own personality, my failings and made huge efforts to overcome whatever I'm contributing to it... and yet...it gets us nowhere.

He's a great kid - funny, bright, emotionally really astute. But he's also utterly disrespectful to me quite a lot (far more than DP), unmovable once he wants something and if denied, can go on and on and on and on - never giving up - which is so exhausting and makes me want to shoot myself. And sometimes he's rude a lot to me, at home and out, so rude that despite taking the approach of asking him gently to 'be nice, use a nice tone,' I want to scream in his face that I'm his mum, show some respect.

Today I had enough and snapped after several things. Sent him to bed without reading. He was upset but even though he understood why, he couldn't let go of the fact that we'd denied him reading time. He's apologised but only because he really wants to read. He's still calling out about it now, 45 mins on.

When he's good, he's AMAZING. And don't get me wrong, I absolutely love him to bits.

But I find him so challenging and such hard work. It's just really upsetting. I feel stuck in treacle with it.

Do you think it is a bit of a phase as they hit school age? My six year old is also talking down to me a lot and acting like I know nothing and very indignant if I ask him to do anything. I wonder if it is a result of starting school, or maybe just a six/seven year old thing....?

Lovelyusername - I've read both of those books and got a lot from them. BUT neither believe in consequences - not really - and I just don't agree with that. I gave it a lot of thought. And I understand that my DS is not the problem, he might be having a problem which is why he's acting out. And that I'm trying to teach him self control and calm. I get all of that. That I want an authoriative not authoritarian home. I totally believe in the connective element of that parenting style. But you know, there are consequences to shitty behaviour. When we're young, when we're grown up. So, I just couldn't get past that fundamental bit. I took from it what I could though.

I think it might also be an age thing. Where they start to see themselves a bit more clearly; where, in class, they are trying to arrange themselves into a social hierarchy.

I've got a stubborn, tenacious daughter to (she is ASD though) but she's not rude. The rudeness I get from my son, and I say to him in a loud, firm tone "who do you think you are talking too?", and if he doesn't remove himself to think about his attitude I send him to his room. He isn't rude very often, probably can count them on both hands and he's 11, but there's no way I accept that behaviour.

Stubborn is different, that's hoping if they go on long enough, you'll give in. Designed to drive you nuts! Just state your decision and why, and then walk away if they argue. Don't engage, ignore! Keep yourself busy, to distract yourself from the whining. Kids test boundaries endlessly, but they need those firm boundaries so they know where they stand. Good luck.

If you haven't read "how to talk so kids will listen..." then do.

I suspect that at the end of a very long hard slog you will have a very capable, determined and successful adult, but that might not be much of a comfort right now.

I think there is no harm in explicitly teaching respect. Not "do what I do because I say so. I'm big, you're little" but more you need to listen and treat other people's opinions and feelings with respect. You're clearly modelling that too (though do you and DH do so mutually to each other?) but being more explicit with how you expect him to behave in return might help.

Definitely consistent consequences, every single time, no matter how hard. It does work. You will reap the rewards eventually.

Kids say mean things to people that they know love them unconditionally, it is safe for them to do so, they know you won't stop loving them. But they don't mean them and you cannot allow them to hurt you or mar your relationship. Let them wash over you, you can say "well that's not a very nice thing to say is it? Luckily I love you anyway. But it still doesn't change the rule that xx is not acceptable and xx is the consequences"

Have looked st Ross Greene,s books or website
www.livesinthebalance.org. Based of the premise kids do well if they can

My eldest DD was an absolute nightmare growing up. She'd got a borderline ADHD diagnosis, but the reality of it was she wanted life to go her way and she had an adult head in a childs body. She'd argue black was white for the sake of a row. Her daily mission in life was to cause conflict. It was exhausting, miserable and relentless. Her behaviour was so bad that she got repeatedly excluded from school and got moved, then she started again and in desperation I home schooled her for a few years before she went back to college.
If it's any small consolation, she's an amazing adult. She is fierce, loyal, kind, a brilliant mum and someone that I'd love even if she wasn't my DD. I adore her. But for many many years between 6 and 16, I could quite mercifully have had her put into care. My survival skills were letting the small things go, never giving into an argument, and adopting a monotone repitition "No we aren't doing that" over and over and never wavering. And try not to punish, as the only person is yourself by having to enforce it . You have my absolute sympathy .

only person you punish is yourself by having to enforce it - that should have said!

I have a wilful DD1 (now 9). My life seems like a never ending battle of wills.

She does it more with me than DH, and I get the most venom ('I hate you!'; 'You're stupid!'; 'Shut up!'; ). None of it is helped by her hormones which have been kicking off since she was 5 (premature adrenarche). She's throwing teenage strops about 9 year old things.

I disagree with the idea that this difference is a fault of the parent that's getting 'it'. I'm by far the more severe and consistent disciplinarian and she never, ever wins (except if she's very clever with sarcasm/wit, in which case I might laugh, high-5 her and diffuse it). I think these children crave boundaries and are deliberately goading the parent that will most satisfy that need. Perhaps the OP is doing all the right things.

One night reading (obviously an important thing to your DS) lost is nothing in the scheme of things. You have to remove something significant and important to them for punishments to work. Tomorrow there can be a calm conversation about how you don't want to punish/remove privileges/reading but sometimes (occasionally) he has to listen to what you're saying without argument.

It's not without hope. DD1 snuggled against me one morning a fortnight ago and apologised. She said that she was glad I was there and she thought I was a great person to be the one helping her to grow up. If she wasn't 9 I'd have asked her if she was drunk We've locked horns since, mind you.

Hackedoffwithit half the issues we had were cos we had consequences, sometimes this felt harsh, sometimes it caused major tantrums, but we were consistent in our beliefs and expectations of how we wanted our kids to behave, (manners etc) although it gave us grief we both believe (backed up by our sons discussions with us now they are adults)that we did get it right in the end and we are glad we pushed it and did not give in for an easier life no matter how tempting that was.

Thank you Elfycat. That's really helpful.

I am harsher than DP, I think. I'm just that sort of person. DP is very firm and clear, though and has strong boundaries. He's no pushover.

I'm just an edgier person.

Do we always respect each other in front of DS? Honestly - probably not. We are fiery. We have, in the past, rowed in front of DS. And honestly, DS can really rack up the temperature in a room sometimes, that we end up falling out over his behaviour.

But we are also incredibly loving and close as a family. DS has a great time, a really good laugh and is very loved.

He just wants it all his own way.

I have a couple of really determined dc and a couple of easy going ones. I find the determined ones do better with expectations and plans laid out very clearly in advance along with benefits if they go along with the plan and consequences if they dont.

Eg, after school we are going to Xs house. We will stay for at least 2 hours and maybe 3. Then we will go home for dinner and relaxing time before bed. We are having XYZ for dinner. Tonight is your shower night, you may choose if you want to shower before or after dinner. At Xs house you may have your ipad and you may sit next to me and read but not play games after you have chatted nicely with X for 10 mins. If you play games rather than reading, I will take your ipad away for the rest of the visit. If you dont agree with something at anypoint, you may discuss it with me ONCE, after that discussion I will decide and then if you mention it again the consequence will be abc. Do you have any questions about this plan for the day......

I find that for my dc who is anxious and therefore argumentative, knowing the plan reduces his anxiety and his bolshiness, for my dc who is just bad at transitions and a control freak, giving the option to discuss the plan helps him feel in control but being clear that I make the decisions and I will only discuss each issue once keeps me in actual control.

It is very tiring, but I keep reminding myself that if I can manage to get them through childhood in one piece then the determination will stand them in good stead as adults

Doesn't sound like ASD or PDA to me either.
But yes. Parenting a wilful child is very hard work.

My nieces are both like this. They are now 12 and 10 and while they have their moments, they are way more reasonable than they used to be. My DSis and DBIL have the patience of saints but they used to feel like you do.

Hang in there. DSis always says that being incredibly determined and self-possessed aren't bad things in adult life so that's what she hangs onto.

Ok, so what if you're out with a wilful child in the park, minding him and his friends playing. And he's rude to you more than once. And rude to a friend (which really upsets me). Do you remove him? Take him home? Knowing that you've embarrassed him in front of his friends which comes with a high price but also trying to show him that he can't operate like that?

I get confused over what to do in those moments

Mine are very strong willed too, as am I, chips off the old block, so it is wearing but I can see where it comes from. I really agree with the pp who said it gets better when they are better at self regulation.

I watched a brilliant youtube advice about keeping strong willed children under control when they are off on one, years ago - repeat just single words, don't get into debate - so, like, x your dinner is on the table and then "dinner, now" "dinner, now" until they move! And if they get upset "but mummy i am trying to talk to you" i say "we can talk when you are at the table. now". I am sure someone will tell me that is terrible though. People listening would hear the word "now" a lot..

Also I recommend work on the connection... if it starts to feel like it is going, get it back again, so that you feel close as much as possible, whether by reading or playing or talking to them, or anything else. My dc listen to reason far more when our connection is good.

And I also invest time in getting dc to be kind to others, showing the value of it so that they might eventually be kind to me

I keep consequences to a minimum. If they ask for something with a whine or a maharajah-esque demand I get them to ask again nicely but I then give it to them rather than withholding endlessly. I tried doing consequences for longer and it turned into a war of attrition which would not have ended before one side ran out of the will to live entirely.

It is getting better. (I tell myself that a lot)

Oh and for a dc who wont stop arguing, I have been known to play ‘Let it go’ at super high volume throughout the house until we are either in fits of laughter or they cave from corny music pain. If they try to start up again, I only have to say Alexa play.... and they give in and run away

OP I get where you are coming from. DD has always been like this, although delightful in lots of ways, it gets harder as they get older. I remember a very dear and insightful friend saying 'well if you do insist on raising a little individual with her own mind and view of the world'! Whilst said in jest she is a very experienced professional working with disadvantaged children (as am I). I will always remember this conversation in a corridor outside the work bathroom. DD will be an amazing adult but at times it is hard getting her there.

If mine had done that at the park I would have taken her to one side and told her last chance to behave and apologise to friend or we go home. Mean it and stick to it. If she had refused to come to one side I would have told her she had 5 seconds to come over or I speak out loud so friends will hear.
It is hard when friends are around and sometimes mine would be worse as showing off.

But he's also utterly disrespectful to me quite a lot (far more than DP),

Is your DP fairly disrespectful to you in front of your DS?

number one rule.... think about what the consequence is, how easy is it to implement, is it going to cause a whole heap of additional grief to your day in practical terms? if not then stop , think, and then voice the consequence if you are sure you can carry it out with no major disruption to your day, .... if not think of another easy to carry out consequence that you can implement, then carry it out! like an early bedtime or no story or something. the thing with consequences is never ever let them become a punishment for anyone else other than the recipient, don't threaten when its something you can't or will fond it hard to carry out. you need to stay i control of the threats so only make them if you can / are able / willing to see them through.

Ok, so what if you're out with a wilful child in the park, minding him and his friends playing. And he's rude to you more than once. And rude to a friend (which really upsets me). Do you remove him? Take him home? Knowing that you've embarrassed him in front of his friends which comes with a high price but also trying to show him that he can't operate like that?

I would start with "you are not allowed to be rude" and get him to apologise. After that it is a judgement call - I would probably try taking him to one side and saying very clearly that it isn't on and has to stop and I mean it. If it keeps happening I might assume that he wasn't going to get much out of the park and remove, but I wouldn't remove as in force it, I would think of an excuse to get him out of the park and then talk afterwards. Behaviour is communication, though, and it might be that there is something wrong. And sometimes there is a build up, he might be reliving something which upset him weeks earlier.

I think going back to the consequences thing, good behaviour going into adulthood tends to come from a desire to behave well, wanting to make others happy, rather than from a fear of punishment, I think. People who behave badly are usually unhappy about something.

DH has coached me a bit. He's much firmer and no nonsense than me and it used to scare me a bit but he is never aggressive, just clear and direct - it's the directness which makes me uncomfortable. I used to be very touchy feely empathetic wanting to make everything nice and it just doesn't work for DS. All that stuff on gentle parenting websites - actually, I suspect that it's ME it doesn't work on, because the problem was never that I was too authoritative and needed to give him some slack. The problem was that I was too laid back, eager to please, a pushover, I'm not really very consistent because I love the idea of being the fun mum who says yes, why not. Mainly, though, I'm lazy, I like the easy life, I just can't bring myself to care that much until it gets to being something really serious and then it's too late, and that was the problem.

I also read that When Your Kids Push Your Buttons and that was fantastic. That taught me what consistency really was because I didn't actually know. My sister and I have always been co-operative easy to please and eager to please types! So my mum raised us with discussion and empathy at all times and I tried to recreate that and used gentle parenting as my kind of "buffer" as if to say yes this is a thing, back off, let me get on with it - the problem is that gentle parenting books/sites assume that parents are too authoritative and need to be less, and a lot of them also assume that children are gentle and kind and thoughtful if you just give them the chance - and a lot of them ARE! And DS absolutely can be all of those things, but sometimes he gets an idea stuck in his head and it is like he is a heat seeking missile and he cannot change his thought track until that has been accomplished, and I don't think gentle parenting stuff really works for that. Andrea Nair, Janet Lansbury/RIE is a much better fit for him than AP/Gentle Parenting. (I mean as if anyone is still following any "parenting style" at this age, but the approach those people/styles advocate - that is a better fit for us.)

The other thing I (think) I got from the buttons book was about where boundaries need to be. I thought if I let the boundaries go as far as is actually possible/logical/safe that DS would magically understand and respect that more than a boundary which was arbitrary (hahahaha) - no - it turns out that you need the arbitrary boundary in order to give yourself some breathing room, so that when they push or step over the boundary, you're still in control and calm and can actually do something about it without being in adrenaline panic mode. Whereas if you draw the line right between acceptable and not, if they go over it, they're already doing something terrible. Like when they were toddlers, you wouldn't let them balance on the kerb and then tell them to come back when they stepped into the road, because what if they didn't? It would be too late. So you probably made them walk on the opposite side of the pavement, and if they kept drifting too close to the road, you'd hold hands or put them in the buggy, and it didn't matter if they had a tantrum, because you knew you couldn't just let them get run over.

So much helpful stuff thank you.

I think - whoever asked - both DP and I can, on occasion, be disrespectful to each other