to not understand how anyone can think that girls are harder work than boys

[beclev24]

I know all kids are individuals/ there are easy and difficult kids of both genders etc etc. But I've seen various threads on here about how girls are much harder work than boys, and I can't get my head round it at all.

I have 3 boys. It can be like dealing with a pack of wild animals. They are exhausting to parent (lovely and sweet and gorgeous as well of course, just very hard work.) . Tonight we went to a friend's house who has three girls of similar ages. They were so restrained and quiet and cooperative, while mine needed constant policing to stop them from bouncing off the walls. It seems to be similar wherever we go- that it is a constant struggle to get them to behave, whereas for my friends with girls it seems to happen way more naturally. The stereotype is that boys are harder work physically and girls are more complex emotionally, but my boys are also hard work emotionally! lots of tantrums/ big feelings/ complicated wants and needs/ friendship issues etc.

AIBU? Or just a bad parent?

Obviously not a scientific study, as only one family, but it did show me how in this family at least, the girls are being given a clear message that they are not as capable of physical tasks as boys. I find it really disappointing.

There has been a scientific study done on this; it's referenced in this interesting Horizon episode on the subject of male/female brains:

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04knbny/horizon-20142015-7-is-your-brain-male-or-female

A term I heard on MN is confirmation bias.

I see it all the time with mine - I think my DS and DD have been playing vs sitting down a similar amount of time. But people notice the physical bits with DS and comment on him being active. Whereas they notice the quiet bits with DD and her sitting down.

I also see people talking differently to boys and girls. Boys are expected to need activity, so are told to sit still until X time, or they can go run about after eating / sitting nicely, etc. Reinforcing the idea that boys want to be physical and it’s hard to restrain them. People seem to expect girls to just sit still, and they are told to enjoy sitting still and praised for doing it.

I think a lot of the time people see what they want to see.

I have two daughters, both completely different to each other. DD1 is a 'typical girl' - quiet, polite etc. DD2 is a little rumbunctious whirlwind. I've see just as much variation within the genders of the young children at DD2's nursery as between them.

Once kids get older, there's definitely some between-gender differences, but I think there's a huge amount of early socialisation that enhances them. I watch the kids at the parties my DD1 goes to, and often the boys will be tearing around, pushing each other over. I can't understand why the parents don't stop them. I guess there's a 'boys will be boy' attitude?

Batteries - Yes! Confirmation bias, definitely.

A few weeks ago, my OH's aunt was visiting and telling us how our DNephew was "such a little boy", just as DD2 came marching through the kitchen like a soldier.

lol! No comment at all about that..!

I have all boys so I don't know but my boys are a lot more boisterous than my brother's dc's but my nieces are fussier eg they won't go to the toilet until I've removed the spider from the bath.

I watch the kids at the parties my DD1 goes to, and often the boys will be tearing around, pushing each other over. I can't understand why the parents don't stop them

Said the mother of two DDS! Have you ever tried to calm down a group of pre school/primary age boys at a party?! You can't and I hate this attitude that boys are being naughty because they are boisterous and have a lot of energy.

@elliejjtiny. Lol at the spider in the toilet bit.

*Plenty of studies show the same or similar differences.

This is not especially controversial science.

www.nature.com/articles/mp200979*

That is a letter to the editor, is there an original article? Is there a date?

It also seems to be a reanalysis of someone else’s data? Where is that data from? I’ve read it several times and can’t see how many brains they used- if it’s one male and one female that’s hardly a dataset.

As an aside, where would someone get enough midgestation fetal brains to run a statistically significant study?

People seem to expect girls to just sit still, and they are told to enjoy sitting still and praised for doing it.

Yup. And here (I live in Sweden) there is none of that at kindergarten. All of them are out in the playground at drop off even when it’s -13 in the morning. Well wrapped up, in practical clothes. When it’s wet they are outside, well wrapped up, in waterproof clothes. The emphasis is on getting out in the fresh air and running around. Children don’t start school formally until 7 and they are very very gradually eased into the idea of sitting still. When they start it’s just long enough for a story, and it gradually builds up to long enough for a short lesson. The idea of cooping 3-4 year old kids up indoors, or having them sit at desks it met with horror here. I explained about UK ‘wet playtimes’ and they were appalled :)

There is noticeably less overt gendering here. It’s not perfect but it’s a striking difference to how I see small children treated back in the UK. Here they all do everything. There’s no ‘girls stuff’ or ‘boys stuff’ they just have a range of stuff, and kids play with whatever they want. There’s no pushing of either sex to play With stereotyped toys or play modes and there’s no pushing the other way either. Children are just children. There are two kids in my sons class that I wouldn’t be confident about whether they are actually girls or boys - (foreign names so not immediately identifiable, practical clothes, curly toddler hair.) there are plenty of Male nursery teachers.

No one is dogmatic or daft about it - if a girl wants to play only with the dolls they wouldn’t care, its not a political point, it’s more just an attitude that kindergarten is for play and fun and civilising them and that their sex isn’t that relevant at this point.

Having lived here a few years I am convinced this early start and attitude feeds through to the rest of society. There is FAR less gender crap here. Far more respect for women and far more just treating people as humans. It is good.

Kids are kids. Some are difficult.. Some are easy. In our family the boys are really placid and the girls are hard work. But this says more about individual personalities and the positions people take in our family narrative.... in my world... I am relieved I have son's 😁

@Anatidae

"And I think you’ve misunderstood the context of may."

We all have our specialist areas and as unlikely as it sounds, I've had several papers published on modality and the word 'may'. I think you've confused 'may' and 'but' and their purpose in your phrases.

'There are observable physical, sex-based differences in the brain but they may have no effect on our mental abilities' might be what you think you said or meant to say.

The actions of testosterone etc on the body can be measured quite easily. We currently don’t have the knowledge of the brain to say that x structural issue or different is the cause of x behaviour.

Not sure why you put these two sentences together in a paragraph.

The actions of testosterone on the brain is quite easily observed and has been done so with observation around the halfway point in gestation. I agree (unsurprisingly) that we can't yet answer nature vs nurture.

"We need to be really careful with the pink brain blue brain shit - it’s used rather like evolutionary psychology, to justify some pretty unpleasant ideologies."

No we don't and it's a shame that you would consider that we need to be careful. It's wishy-washy politics getting into science which means Cordelia Fine is mentioned and won an award.

Scientists shouldn't shy away from non-PC subjects although it clearly already does.

I'd love it if you answered one question for me as you're clearly knowledgeable.

There are many, many differences between men and women up to and including physical differences in the brain. How is the position that in the face of all of these differences socialisation is responsible for cognitive 'abilities'* the logical one especially as we know that the 'mental organ' is different dependent on the sexes?

*for want of a better word

formerbabe I fundamentally disagree. I don't think boys are 'naughty' for getting excited at parties, but I do think parents allow them to get away with a lot more than girls.

I think by the time kids get to school age, boys have learnt that they're not going to get told off for running around and pushing each other, and often copy older brothers in doing so. If girls try to do that, they're told to stop, to calm down etc.

Yes, I have two daughters (the second of whom, you may have noticed, I described as 'rumbunctious' - she's easily as boistrous and physically active as any of the boys at her nursery), and yes, I tell them to slow down, to not push etc. I can't imagine being any different with boys, but apparently many parents are.

I have 4 children, 3 boys and a girl, my boys are quite busy (one has a diagnosis of ADHD and ASD and another is on the pathway), my girl is fairly busy but much easier to manage and parent, least so far.

Honestly though it depends, I have one friend with 3 girls, eldest two are very dry placid and youngest is much more busy and then another with 4 girls, two extremely quiet and 2 NOT.

I think children are children, I have friends with very demanding children, usually girls, but I really think sex has very little to do with it.

bizzare my point has not been that there are no physical differences. Where have I said that? My point is that it’s hard to link a specific bit of brain or a difference link grey matter density with a behaviour.

It is NOT like say strength - you can objectively measure how much stronger a Male is than a female of identical height and build and assign that cause to testosterone and Male hormone patterns during development.
You cannot do that with the brain because our current knowledge of it is not good enough to link form and behaviour. You can make guesses. But all those studies are confounded by socialisation.

Look, I’m massively gender critical - there ARE plenty of physical difference between men and women. I’m a radfem- women’s oppression stems from their biology.

But what you cannot say is ‘this bit of brain here differs in males and females and that results in x difference in behaviour

All you can say is for example ‘we see this structural difference, in this area, which we know has a role in x but we cannot definitely say that this is the sole cause of xxx behaviour.’

Socialisation is hugely important. We need to be really careful about assigning behaviours to the sexes because the logical conclusion is excusing that behaviour.

It is correct to say that men have higher testosterone and that higher testosterone is linked to aggression. The problem is what we do with that - because a significant section of the MRA movement takes that to mean ‘men are excused violent behaviour because Science.’

Do you see my point? I am not denying biological difference. I am saying that when it comes to the brain we know almost nothing and that using structural differences as a basis for behavioural apologism is a really dodgy thing to do.

I see your point but think it's entirely illogical and that you didn't say why it is the intelligent or logical position to take.

If we ignore your conflating "excusing" with explaining, what's the issue? I haven't said that anyone should be excused anything (although diminished responsibility is an interesting topic).

Why is it logical that we are different from the neck down but not for the little bit we don't yet understand?

Please answer that question.

bizarre Socialisation starts from new borns... caregivers speak more to girl babies and treat boy babies more physically. Literally from the word go we treat them differently. I used to think boys and girls were different because of biology, then I saw this... www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/proginfo/2017/33/no-more-boys-and-girls
I don’t doubt there are minor differences, but socialisation has a lot to answer for.

Why is it logical that we are different from the neck down but not for the little bit we don't yet understand?

That’s not what I’m saying. There probably are physical differences but we dont understand the brain well enough to understand them.

We understand gonads and muscles and glands and the concept of VOmax pretty well so we CAN say with confidence ‘on average men are x amount different’ we cannot do that with the brain and yet there’s a colossal amount of pseudoscience that purports to do so. The ‘trans brain’ stuff for example. Some of the TRA stuff just makes me despair.

And the excusing is a biggie. Example: a small proportion of men have an extra Y chromosome. They look normal and you’d never know it by looking but when we’ve tested, a disproportionate number of them are in prison for violent offences.
But this throws up a moral dilemma because if we say these men are there because of that then where does that leave free will and accountablity? Are they slaves to their hormones to the point of diminished responsibility? (The courts say no.)

It’s just really problematic to have this concept of pink brain blue brain, because you can’t quantify what’s nature and what’s nurture, not can you assign structural brain differences to differences in behaviour. The concept may well exist - our knowledge of the brain is not sufficient to even start to pronounce on it.

There are so many statements here that don't ring true for me even thinking only about my own kids - especially the friendship issues one! At primary age the most extreme manipulative, bullying by picking a favourite and excluding and belittling a scapegoat, blackmail through withdrawal of favour "friendship behaviour" was orchestrated over a period of years by a very eloquent, superficially charming little boy playing greyback amount a group of little boys. The longer I know him the more convinced I am that something is very wrong in that child's home life, his father is a nasty piece of work... However friendship issues and manipulative peer relationships have never been as problematic for DD as ds2 due to that boy...

Also I can control as many boys as I invite to either of my ds's birthday parties - but I have an excellent teacher state and matching voice (lower the pitch slightly from your usual speaking voice and know each child's name).

*stare not state

bizarefoods have you read Cordelia Fine's "Testosterone Rex"? She is a scientist and the book won the Royal Society's book prize.

If there's one thing I really can't stand it's the "boys will be boys" excuse that is trotted out when boys are being rowdy little gits and pushing and shoving each other.
They don't need to behave like that - and sometimes girls will behave like that too! if it was "kids will be kids" then fair enough - but the idea that boys are automatically more rowdy and rough is really irritating.
SOME are - but some are NOT.

sorry- left the thread as we live in a different time zone.

Some really interesting replies here- has definitely given me food for thought. I agree- a lot of this is definitely confirmation bias. When I think about it more carefully, my boys, especially DS1 will sit still for long periods to do say, lego, but I think I discount mentally that because it's not say, sitting round a table and chatting. I also agree that a lot of the differences are almost certainly caused by socialisation, but socialistation is quite subtle. For example, I know there are parents who excuse boisterous behavior by saying "boys will be boys" but I am definitely not one of those. I am constantly policing their behaviour, I don't think boisterousness/ rambunctioness is ok in quiet situations, I certainly don'tthink hitting etc is ok, but yet THEY STILL DO IT. Whereas my friend, who is doing much much less minute by minute parenting than me, is very easily able to control her girls, and they do not behave like this. A part of my boys behaviour is almost certainly socialisation- what they learn from other adults, from their friends, from the TV and toys that are marketed to them etc and all aspects of the wider culture, but not as simple as saying "parents tolerate it more from boys."

What I have always found is that although parents of boys often say they are physical but emotionally straightforward, mine seem to be both physical and emotionally complicated. Especially my DS1 has very complicated friendships, emotions, moods etc. I think there is some confirmation bias going on there as well- when boys exhibit complex emotions people label it as something different- bad behavior, anger, explosiveness etc rather than an emotional issue.

My parents think girls are harder work than boys, they have 3 of each!

Everyone’s different though my Aunty thinks boys are harder work. Can’t really put everyone into one box just because of their sex

As a teacher I find the boys behaviour as a whole worse, but then the girls are more sly with it and more bitchy amongst themselves.

It's not an easy issue to address.

Much of the observed behaviour in humans is due to socialization, and we still don't know how much is genetics or hormone driven. It's hard because we can't experiment on humans, and animals models can differ from us in quite surprising ways.
We still know very little about brain function and architecture.

In any case, I wouldn't be surprised if males on average differed from females on average for a number of behavioural traits, even based on genetics. But I'll very confidently bet (educated guess based on previous research results) that there is no single male or female brain, but a wide spectrum with large overlaps.
That means that we can't predict behaviour from sex, and it also means that we shouldn't have overly dominant males or females in certain roles.

As a society we can limit self reinforcing loops among groups.

Sadly, I think we are gearing towards reinforcing stereotypes once again.