to not understand how anyone can think that girls are harder work than boys

[beclev24]

I know all kids are individuals/ there are easy and difficult kids of both genders etc etc. But I've seen various threads on here about how girls are much harder work than boys, and I can't get my head round it at all.

I have 3 boys. It can be like dealing with a pack of wild animals. They are exhausting to parent (lovely and sweet and gorgeous as well of course, just very hard work.) . Tonight we went to a friend's house who has three girls of similar ages. They were so restrained and quiet and cooperative, while mine needed constant policing to stop them from bouncing off the walls. It seems to be similar wherever we go- that it is a constant struggle to get them to behave, whereas for my friends with girls it seems to happen way more naturally. The stereotype is that boys are harder work physically and girls are more complex emotionally, but my boys are also hard work emotionally! lots of tantrums/ big feelings/ complicated wants and needs/ friendship issues etc.

AIBU? Or just a bad parent?

I am baffled by the people who deny the role socialisation has to play. From the very day they are born (even before!) it kicks in. Girl babies are.put in headbands and frilly bloody dresses and are given dolls to play with. Boys are.put in jogging bottoms and given blocks and balls. There was a programme last year showing that people treated and talked about the exact same baby totally differently depending on the colour of babygro it was in.

So yes, if girls are dressed in clothes that restrict movement and encouraged to be quieter, more still, then yes eventually a lot of girls will sit still and be quiet. But that isn't because they are 'easier', its because knowingly or not, the people around them have worked hard from the offset to make it so.

I'd say girls and boys are both hard work in different ways. My oldest is a boy and I use to envy my friends who had girls the same age who would just sit around happily playing with their toys while my ds was crawling, climbing and generally just non stop all the time. You couldn't take your eyes off him for a second.

@IfyouseeRitaMoreno

Ironically, considering your argument, I think that women like 'shit sandwich' type appraisals with things carefully couched and gently worded and "perhaps we could try working on improving ...". Men, on the other hand, appreciate knowing where they stand and what they need to do to improve.

I often find that when men aren't progressing as they wish they were, they'll seek out a superior and simply ask, 'why isn't this working and what can I do to be better at it'. Women will not be so direct. They won't ask. They take criticism as a direct attack on them personally. They can't separate professional and personal criticism.

Yes, as a manager, I prefer the direct approach. It saves everyone a lot of time and effort and is the adult way of doing things.

"If you were on a train and a fellow passenger had music blasting out of their headphones would you bluntly say “hey! Turn it down!”"

Yes.

"indirectness is undervalued precisely because it’s seen as being practised by women."

That's a big, unfounded, uncited and unproven assertion.

"You see, I’m sure there are physical differences in the brain but it’s a big leap from “the shape of the hypothalamus differs in male and female brains” to men are better at map reading and women love housework."

Let's ignore that example and instead think about differences in general.

Men throw further than women - more muscle mass and better-designed elbows for the task.

Men run faster and further than women - more muscle mass, more able to convert food into energy, more adrenaline in their bodies, more efficient and larger CV systems.

Can women notice details in stationary objects whereas men notice movement as from a further distance? Yes. Different structures in the eyes.

All nice, clear and obvious explanations for physical differences between the sexes meaning men and women are good at different things.

We know that different parts of the brains control different functions. There's a lot of interesting research with regard to things like autism and physical differences in brain structure e.i. different sizes of various areas.

It strikes me as entirely illogical that we should expect the different physical and chemical parts of the brain to not have a big effect on male and female behaviour.

To me it's entirely illogical that you think differences in behaviour must be because of socialisation despite observable differences everywhere we look. I find it especially illogical considering we can see differences in male and female brains before they're even born.

Why do you think your position is the logical one to take? Do you think you're ignoring science in favour of what you hope may be correct?

@twat - I can't help your inability to read. Must be the patriarchy's fault!

As a native Brit I would actually say that indirectness is not a female trait but a very British one. I spent many years in Germany and the USA and in both nations both sexes are much more direct than either sex in Britain. We hate confrontation and prefer moaning and vagueness to directness.

I honestly don't think it's that simple, as others have said.
I have 2 boys, with 5 years between them.
They are sometimes hard work but mostly they're pretty well behaved, especially when out - but I put that down to the bigger age gap, rather than my natural "brilliance" as a parent

My sister has 3 girls. She thinks I have a much easier time of it. But then her 3 are all much closer together, and with 2 in their teens and one tween, it's only getting worse with moods and hormones etc.

It might seem and feel to you that you are working much harder to keep your boys under control than your friend is with her girls - but you aren't there all the time, you don't know what happens when you go away again.

I have another friend who has 4 DC, 2 of each - the older 2 are girls. At school, the second DD is an angel - but the minute she gets out the door she lets loose with all her pent-up anxiety, which explodes as rage/tears/fighting her sister. She would say her 2 DDs are much harder work.

I have another friend who has 3 DC - 2 boys and then a girl (quite a bit younger) - the boys are very close together in age but poles apart in character and they fight like caged animals.

There are no generalisations - it's not parenting, it's not sex, it's not even probably age gap - it's just down to who they are (and, to be fair, in my friends' cases, the neurodivergence aspects of their children).

YY to BoomBoom and Muddy. I’ve seen it with my DNiece since day one when I walked into the maternity ward to a wall of pink cards covered in flowers, after the blue and black car and football covered cards (which are also often more humourous) that my nephews receive on a yearly basis.

And my niece is an extremely happy little girl, surrounded with love and wonderful parents but to deny that socialisation has an effect is as bonkers as denying physical differences IMO.

It’s an x y graph except we don’t know how much is x and how much is y. And we don’t need to know. Because we can’t do anything about biology but we can about socialisation. And putting our expectations of gendered behaviour on those children is socialisation.

It's the way you've brought them up

Seriously though, it is partly. You've undoubtedly subtly reinforced behaviour regarded by society as "boyish" their whole lives.

Also you only have boys so can't compare. The behaviour of children on visits isn't an overview. If children are traditionally socialised the "difficult" behaviour of girls will display in private.

I've got a girl and two boys. All of them are civilised alone. The boys are wilder together if allowed to be, but that is our fault as we've condoned that behaviour up to a point.

ATM I find my girl child hardest to parent but that's largely age not gender - DH is better suited to the stage of parenting she needs, I was better at birth to ten years old! I'm working on it though.

I agree about indirectness being British but think it's even more exaggerated in British female socialisation. I've lived in Germany over a decade and am glad I'm bringing my DD up here! British indirectness drives me insane now!

Girls are quashed from a very young age. Even their clothing is less practical and that from a TINY age. Newborn.

Dresses and pale colours do not encourage "bouncing off walls" or getting dirty.

In my opinion, my DDs are much 'harder work' than my DSs.

@beclev24 I think that generalised statement refers to older children. There's another that states girls are easier babies. Not entirely sure what age the switch over is supposed to occur though!! I suspect puberty.

I've teenager boys. Both could be boisterous at times as a young children. One would have been more restrained, quiet and cooperative than the other. The quiter as a child is far more a grumpy teen than the other. The one that bounced off the walls more is a great teen (so far!!) once he's not hungry...

There's also a just teenager girl "good baby" (that means slept through the night earlier on and easily soothed! Though I've a boy who was like that too.) co-operative child (bounced off walls but would stop most times when told to). So far so reasonable.

Some of a child's behaviour will be influenced by parenting some by the child's nature (which will influenced by their sex). Siblings can also influence behaviours too.

There is a difference between boys and girls, but it's not consistent enough to confidently declare it as a given. Too many other variables influence behaviour and personality.

Having read through all of these there are some really interesting opinions. I think what comes out is that yes there are many reasons why we are built differently and there fore are differently, anecdotally it's not black and white is boys are this and girls are that. Speaking from my own experience I have 1 of each and they both absolutely fulfil the stereotypes. Most people I know who have 1 or more boys seems to agree with me.. it's the sheer 'need to be physical constantly' that stands out to me with my DS and his friends. DD (11) is ridiculously emotionally aware and has way more friendship issues in her group..

What I would also say though is that DS is so sweet and helpful around the house. Really wants to help me if he's in the right mood. It's hard getting DD to lift a finger!

YABU

People 'expect' boys to be bouncing off the walls etc so they accept a different standard of behaviour.

I have two boys, they are 3 and 6 months. The 3 year old likes sitting nicely and colouring, playing Lego etc. He also enjoys being outdoors and active, as I'm sure do girls.

Socialisation and life experiences can physically change our brains and the size of different parts. There’s little we can prove is absolutely different in the brains of boys and girls primarily due to biology. I’d like to see the evidence about the sight differences. Until puberty there’s no difference in muscle mass and strength, save due to different levels of physical activity. Hormones make the difference when they kick in and absolutely do cause differences in behaviour.

Anecdotally I’m much better than DH at navigating while DH is very sensitive to criticism during performance appraisals at work. Men are taught to hide their emotions better so his manager probably has no idea.

I have three boys and one girl. The girl is harder work in many ways, but the boys are constantly on the move. They run around shouting and fighting while she potters, but she asks me many difficult questions about feelings and girls her age are already starting to be clicky and bitchy which I find exhausting.

At the end of the day, it's not a competition. I'm just very happy to have them whatever gender.

It's depends how you define hard work? I have one of each. Mine fall into gender stereotypes, one was whirlwind of energy and endless questions, always in trouble, and one a mass of friendship fall outs and emotion.

Both were equally hard work in different ways.

I also know families of three boys who appear on the outside to be calm and chilled and well behaved and a family of four girls who are loud and argumentative and always punching each other's things and fighting.

I doubt very much the OP has it harder than families of all girls.

I have two girls - one super girly, emotional but incredibly physical with adhd. The other is more gender neutral in her choices but more sensitive and less physical but still very active and emotional at times. I get fed up of the boys being tougher due to being physical argument having DD1 who was climbing and into everything more than any boy child I’ve encountered. Funnily MiL claimed similar while we struggled with our eldest - due to DH who has an older sister. Guess who had undiagnosed adhd as a child, although they refuse to believe either of them has it.

My daughter goes from 0-60 the moment she opens her eyes, and doesn't stop until they close again. She literally can't keep still at nearly 8. As a baby she rarely slept, and now is just a bundle of pure physicality. A terrifying combination of fearless and strong.

My son is chilled out, will sit, watch films, doze in bed of a morning. Put the two together and he ramps up to join her...which given we home ed means most days are high energy, they are rarely apart.

So in our house she is by far the harder work. We have a baby as well, but he's too young to judge. 😁

But they are both very nicely behaved when out, so boisterous behaviour does not preclude behaving well.

I do agree about girls and boys being given particular messages in early childhood. My particular hate is t-shirts with messages such as “princess” and “diva” type things for girls whilst the boys get ones with “mischief maker” or “here comes trouble “. Neither are positive messages in my opinion and both set out expectations which children can see as “rules”.

I see some interesting developments such as our generation dolls with careers as scientists as part of their character description but it’s still an area which could vastly be improved upon. Less pink packaging would be a good start. Or more pink used for boys in general. So toys wouldn’t be felt to be marketed at a gender would be beneficial.

I have two girls. My oldest has always been totally hyper, bouncing off the walls, physical - and also aggressive, pushing, hitting etc as a toddler. People either assumed she was a boy (from her behaviour) or literally didn’t notice anything except for the fleeting moment she touched a doll, at which point id get an avalanche of “oh isn’t she sweet/caring/nurturing aren’t girls just instinctively like that”. She could be climbing to the top of a tree with (ahead of) a boy and I’d be hearing how boys are just so much more outdoorsy...

A good friend with two sons commented that they would never sit quietly and colour in, “it just isn’t in their personalities”. Turns out she never even tries etc... we keep colouring on the kitchen table and I have suggested it before every meal time since dd was 2. She finally will sit and colour/draw for a brief period of calm. Perhaps like my friend I would have given it up as a lost cause if she was a boy?

I’m not saying there is nothing in the stereotypes but in my experience, they have everything to do with self-fulfilling prophecies, nurture/socialisation and very little to do with actual character traits.

Delusions of Gender by neuroscientist Cordelia Fine is a brilliant book full of evidence about how even newborn babies are perceived and treated differently, and how these differences are internalised as we grow. One example is the difference in how many words parents say to boys / girls each day - as a society we use far fewer words with boys and far less explanation, “don’t do that” vs “oh poor X, we don’t do that, how do you think X is feeling now?” Etc. I’m Generalising but the book is ace, anyway...

some children and hard work and some are easy going
some have phases which are harder than others.
I've not really see it down gender lines.

I have seen parents have wildly different expectations, particularly around 'what girls should wear' and the resulting battles and the parent then saying 'girls are so hard' and me left thinking 'why can't she wear blue trainers instead of the cute cow boy boots you picked for her'.

ive also seen the exact same behaviour seen as difficult in a girl and not in a boy - eg giving an opinion

the thing that does upset me is I get a lot of parents telling me 'your so lucky with boys - you don't get all those hormones/emotions' and I cant help feeling testosterone is a hormone and men have plenty of emotions - sometimes with terrible consequences, so if you are being a good parent you are helping your boy with his emotions too.

Mother of 2 boys and one girl. My god is she more work!! Aged 5 she is definitely the diva and madam of the house. The boys are just louder

This opinion is something i've only heard on MN and from my berk of a bil (who has to have it worse than everyone and goes on about the psychological strain of his 2 really well behaved lovely girls). Everyone else i know (which includes nannies, teachers, au pairs and paediatric nurses) say without a doubt every single experience they have had has anecdotally been that boys are much harder work. This may be just in the younger age groups but i have never met anyone who has said 'oooh 2 boys, that must be so much easier compared to 2 girls'.

I now have 2 boys and a girl. My girl is only 18mo and to date is so much easier than both of my boys (altho she is also a terrible sleeper). If i tell her no, she actually listens. She doesn't run head first into walls or throw herself down the stairs. She also walked the latest (at 11mo - where the boys were 9mo) which meant she was easier for longer - but when she did she didn't run away as soon as she could. She already says 'mummy poo' and sits on the potty before she goes, whereas ds2 has only just got trained this week and he's nearly 4.

We dress her in the same clothes as the boys - trousers/leggins and have bought no new toys for her so her favourite toys are lego and a pirate ship. We bought one baby doll toy for the ds1 to explain ds2 was coming and he just whacked its head against the wall. We used it with ds2 to explain about dd with the same result. It got chucked to the bottom of the toy box and forgotten about. When DD was crawling she used to pull it out and hold it and stroke it and say ahhhh. Now she puts it to her chest and says 'boo baby'. By this age we'd had ds1's face sewn up twice! We'd been asked to leave toddler groups with both boys. She just sits and plays nicely. I know people say it's socialisation but i can't see what we did differently with her - if anything she's been exposed to less of the world than the boys as i haven't taken her out that much.

When i had a girl after my 2 boys everyone did a very big sigh of relief. Obviously things may change as she is only a baby still, but to date it has been very much easier - we don't even need a stair gate!

This (altho not as extreme) is the same with all my friends experiences, including professionals who have worked in a number of child based settings.

I have one of each and my girl is FAR harder than my boy.

YAB completely U.

I have one of each. Both are very physical learners - play/ explore and experiment types. Ds was an easy toddler but a difficult pre-schooler. At 7, he can be in many ways what some people would describe as a 'typical boy', yet he's one of the most sensitive little boys I've met and cares deeply about hurting feelings or having his hurt by others. He shows his emotions in ways i've noticed a lot of his (male) friends don't. He was inconsolable when I collected him from school on Thursday because his beloved teacher was leaving. He loves nurturing and helping his baby sister - used to sit there for ages with her on his lap when she was tiny, loves giving her bedtime milk and reading to her etc.

Dd is 16mo and my cm says she's one of the feistiest children she's ever looked after. She's a more difficult toddler than her brother was. She's confident, loud, physical - yet already hugely empathetic too.

I've come to the conclusion that they're just unique. Over the years socialization will mean they may develop some traditional gender stereotypes (which is where the macho rough play comes in for ds) which we'll do our best to challenge.

I was dead proud when, in a toy shop a few weeks ago, ds overheard a family talking about visiting the 'girls toys aisle'. Ds said to me, loudly (he doesn't do quiet) "There's no such thing as a girl's toys aisle is there Mum?"

@shastabeast

"I’d like to see the evidence about the sight differences."

"[A] recent, large review of the literature concluded that, in most cases females had better sensitivity, and discriminated and categorized odors better than males,"

"The researchers also showed the participants images made up of light and dark bars that varied in width and alternated in color so that they appeared to flicker, a measure of participants' sensitivity to contrast. Compared with the women, the male volunteers were better able to identify the more rapidly changing images made up of thinner bars, the researchers said."

"these neurons are guided by the cortex during embryogenesis, that testosterone plays a major role, somehow leading to different connectivity between males and females,"

here

or

"The way that the visual centers of men and women’s brains works is different, finds new research. Men have greater sensitivity to fine detail and rapidly moving stimuli, but women are better at discriminating between colors."

"In the brain there are high concentrations of male sex hormone (androgen) receptors throughout cerebral cortex, especially in the visual cortex which is responsible for processing images. Androgens are also responsible for controlling the development of neurons in the visual cortex during embryogenesis, meaning that males have 25% more of these neurons than females."

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120903221050.htm

or

and, in case you were wondering, the other senses are provably different too.

www.dulcimermedicalcenter.org/documents/mans_mind4_040505.pdf