To wonder what the world is coming to when the Daily Fail comments section shows more tolerance and understanding than Mumsnet

[worldsupsidedown]

So, I've name changed as I am thoroughly ashamed of having clicked on the side bar of shame, also having been reading an article in the DM at all.

However, there is a story about a very sweet couple - both, wait for it transpeople .

He was a woman and she was a man, they are young and in love, hard working, successful and when you scroll down to the comments are widely accepted by the readers. I mean these readers are generally considered to be the most closed minded and prejudiced people, but EVEN they are OK with it. Because you know what, it is OK.

However, here on Mumsnet no, no. no. He (the transman who was born a woman) would have to come and change alongside your children, get changed in your female only changing rooms, be in your 'safe spaces'. She (the very beautiful, very feminine transwoman who was born a man) would have to go and change with the men, wouldn't be allowed to use the ladies, wouldn't be allowed to access rape crisis if she was assaulted in those places....if you all got your way.

How the fuckity fuck can anyone justify their batshit opinions of that, the world has gone mad if you think that these people are not allowed to live their lives as the gender they identify with because of your petty prejudice and bigotry. Essentially it is none of your business.

So, AIBU to think WTF is going on when the DM and their readership is a more tolerant and accepting place than here?

If so, how do I identify out of this? I don't like pink, or glitter or children. I must be a man?

Cross post, but actually, my response applies to both your posts.

My issue with the GRC requirement is that a transwoman must have been living as a woman for 2 years. How can they do that whilst being denied access to women's spaces? I feel it's fundamentally dehumanising to have to ask other people to pass judgement on who you feel you are rather than being allowed to define yourself.

I would prefer self-id to allow the majority of genuine transwomen to live as they wish , with checks and balances on the behaviour of people as individuals to ensure no-one abuses women in places that are meant to be safe for them. You seem to feel that the checks and balances need to be carried out on transwomen before the granting of access to those safe spaces in case they behave in ways that would make them not safe for women. You may think I am too optomistic about the motives of those who want to self -ID - I thik you are too pessimistic about them. I'm not sure that we will ever agree, but I do recognise that your position comes from one of genuine concern.

However, you must admit that other's on your "side" do have more misandrist atiitudes than your own?

It's late and I should be in bed but I'll bite on the sports.

Yes - no one "owns" sport.

However the reason for sex segregation in sport is to allow a level playing field.

Men, due to biology, have an unequivocal advantage when it comes to most forms of physical competition.

There are examples of exceptional female sportswomen who've taken on men - Billie Jean King vs Bobby Riggs, but she was 29 and he was 55 years of age. Just saying before someone brings it up...

But get the top ranking Male and female Tennis sports people in a match right now and there's no one whose going to put a bet on the woman winning.

Sport, is and should should be, about inspiring people to reach the peak of their physical limits.

Those limits are never going to be the same for men and women.

When you allow people who have had all the biological benefits of being male to compete in women's sports you change the goal posts.

You make a level playing field into a mountain for one sex only.

You stop inspiring women to compete, because why would they when the "best" you can achieve is third etc place? When all the sponsorship money in competitive sport goes to the winners?

So you're slowly edged out not just because of biology (despite being the best female at what you do) but also financially because you can't afford the equipment, training time (as you can't become professional) and get the advertising and endorsements that would fund this.

That's not equality.

You seem to feel that the checks and balances need to be carried out on transwomen before the granting of access to those safe spaces in case they behave in ways that would make them not safe for women.

Not at all, Mrs McGarry (cool name, btw).

I support the current system remaining in place. Which as you say already allows in practice trans people to go wherever they like.

My issue with the GRC is that once granted, it enshrines legally that person’s entitlement to be treated in the same way as a biological woman/man.

It’s a legal process, and you must currently demonstrate that you are committed to all it entails (medical and social proof).

With self ID, anyone can certify whatever they like any that’s it -legally you’re what you say you are.

Which opens up a HUGE can of worms for sex discrimination legislation and sex-segregated spaces and services.

The gas-lighting and double-think is a different (but equally important) issue.

I do not presume to speak for anyone else, so can’t comment on perceived prejudice or misandry. I am however happy with the petition wording and do promote it and the umbrella organisation A Woman’s Place to speak on my behalf because I believe they are fair, balanced and rational.

Organisations and services are being lobbied and are acting ahead of the law. Changing rooms and loos are the least if it. Schools and youth organisations are disregarding the Equalities Act, in the guise of “progress”. That’s not OK.

Fundamentally, I don’t agree that a Muslim woman needs to segregate herself from the gaze of men, that seems bullshit to me. But I respect the cultural/religious view as being important and valuable to that community. So I can’t agree that the rights of a “legal in name” Self-ID’ed female penis owner trumps those of a Muslim natal woman
, even if I sympathise with the trans position. I don’t “agree” with either, but I don’t think one trumps the other.

OP, when it comes to changing rooms, all I care about is biology. A person with a penis has nothing to do in a women's changing room. I don't care if they identify as women, cats, unicorns or aliens from the outer space.
Tell me the proportion of women identifying as men fighting for their rights to change in men's changing rooms. How many trans men (ex women) with no surgery only hormonal therapy are going to men's toilets and changing rooms?
And why the need to stress how lovely that trans girl is? Would you treat her differently if she weren't?

As a middle of the road moderate concerned poster

I find the continued 'you all think AB and C incredibly off putting' i dont give a shiny shit about transwomen in the bogs as they have always been, i do have a mssive problem with men in there

But even posting on here makes you a transphobe who wants to kick all transwomen out of toilets...apparently

Some posters seem to be able to post facts and figures which they appear to be able to back up or have what appear to be valid arguments others are being very obtuse or disingenuous. Maybe both

Thats whats going to make a difference on here at least. As i feel i am being pushed further and further to one side...and i dont want to be

@StillScreaming
Yes that was my point. Not sure how you missed that. It’s not that they would rape, but if you had a female sexual predator and a male sexual predator (without the use of weapons) the male one is capable of so much more damage than a female one is, simply because their ‘equipment’ allows them to & their 30% extra muscle mass of course.

Dear dear Sparkles . Don’t gaslight women about our misgivings and fears , don’t build straw men about what we object to , in order to call that “intolerance “ , and don’t - don’t you EVER - use that straw man in order to talk down to women, traduce us as bigots , and chastise us .

Because - doing so - makes you look like every other virtue signalling d%ck of a misogynist , and I’m sure that sure that’s not your intention .

Sorry . That was really aimed at OP , @Worldisupsidedown . Sincere apologies .

@kubex

“YANBU OP.

Mumsnet is becoming a hotbed for man hating, transphobic bigots that use the term 'feminist' to excuse their behaviours.”

Spoken like a true misogynist . Why are you here if it’s such a horrible place ?
Is it some righteous mission to reducate woman into ladypersons who accede to man thinks? Do tell ?

You are entitled to believe that people are born in the wrong body and that it is a sweet story when they get married.
You might want to ask why it is newsworthy and why they describe these people in such stereotypical sexist terms.
Be warned though that someone will call you names if you talk about it.