To wonder what the world is coming to when the Daily Fail comments section shows more tolerance and understanding than Mumsnet

[worldsupsidedown]

So, I've name changed as I am thoroughly ashamed of having clicked on the side bar of shame, also having been reading an article in the DM at all.

However, there is a story about a very sweet couple - both, wait for it transpeople .

He was a woman and she was a man, they are young and in love, hard working, successful and when you scroll down to the comments are widely accepted by the readers. I mean these readers are generally considered to be the most closed minded and prejudiced people, but EVEN they are OK with it. Because you know what, it is OK.

However, here on Mumsnet no, no. no. He (the transman who was born a woman) would have to come and change alongside your children, get changed in your female only changing rooms, be in your 'safe spaces'. She (the very beautiful, very feminine transwoman who was born a man) would have to go and change with the men, wouldn't be allowed to use the ladies, wouldn't be allowed to access rape crisis if she was assaulted in those places....if you all got your way.

How the fuckity fuck can anyone justify their batshit opinions of that, the world has gone mad if you think that these people are not allowed to live their lives as the gender they identify with because of your petty prejudice and bigotry. Essentially it is none of your business.

So, AIBU to think WTF is going on when the DM and their readership is a more tolerant and accepting place than here?

I have read de Beauvoir but found it hard to understand.

You're presenting what you believe as fact. I'm pointing out that it isn't

It is though.

@ Wheresmyfuckingcupcake

Here's some evidence that sex and gender don't always match up.

www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17563-z

Here's some more:

www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/51914/title/Are-the-Brains-of-Transgender-People-Different-from-Those-of-Cisgender-People-/

Of course it's not definitive but neither is any other theory.,

Neither of those links constitute any evidence of anything.

@StillScreaming sorry I realise you are not the OP and I've read your comments re prisons, the thread moved on considerably from my first seeing it to catching up to post.

This has been an interesting read, I fear I'm not as articulate as many people who post on here so I'm not sure I can adequately get my thoughts across.

When I'm talking about safe spaces, perhaps it's not the right word, but I mean that generally I want to be able to have spaces without men in them - toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards, you name it. I hear lots of talk on here about those spaces already not being sex segregated, I can't say I have experienced it myself. I probably would not use those spaces if I had a choice not to.

Read the fucking book

I've read it more than once, it's tough going but I think I've got a fair understanding.

Forgive me for pointing out the obvious, but neurological differences in the brains of trans people - if they exist - do not prove the existence of gender as anything other than a social construct. It woukd hardly be surprising that people in the same psychological situation showed neurological similarities - the same happens in ocd for example. That does not establish the objective existence of gender independent of chromosomal sex.

I can't say I have experienced it myself.

I think that's the bottom line. With all the fear that everyone has tried to put into your about a mass of 'men' invading these spaces, it just hasn't happened. Trans women use loos etc., the same as they always have and it has no impact ,whatsoever, on the vast majority of people. The men aren't coming for your loo paper.

Still screaming, I infer from your last post that you are asserting that the existence of gender, as distinct from sex, can be evidenced. If so, surely the onus is on you to provide the scientific evidence for that?

This, with bells on. But you can't. The evidence doesn't exist whereas there's masses to suggest it is socially constructed.

Also it's absurb that medical science doesn't think that transwomen are men. For one, the medical profession is highly aware that being trans goes hand in hand with having other significant mental health issues in many cases. Plus if that were true, kids of nine would be handed puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones because it would be an abuse not to give them. Is that what you would like to see? 80% of kids who are struggling with their gender go on to be happy in their own skin. Mermaids do seem, from my impression, to be arguing for these horrible drugs to be handed out. They risk doing great harm to confused kids.

I think that's the bottom line. With all the fear that everyone has tried to put into your about a mass of 'men' invading these spaces, it just hasn't happened.

You haven't read about predatory men sexually assualting girls in Target in the States after they were made gender neutral?

It's all very easy to say any old thing and present it as if it true. Yea it very much has happened. Women have been harmed

I too would like to see the scientific evidence for gender. In what way am I biologically driven to wear make up, like pink and unable to do anything vaguely scientific or [insert your own gender stereotype here].

The men aren't coming for your loo paper

Indeed. They’re coming for the very definition of what a “woman” is.

Use whatever loos you like. But don’t pretend biology is outdated pseudo science.

Be trans. Be proud.

Just don’t be trying to appropriate “woman”.

...but neurological differences in the brains of trans people - if they exist - do not prove the existence of gender as anything other than a social construct.

I admit that it's a bit tenuous and proves no more than the differences, usually ascribed to sex can been seen in the brains of trans people.

I don't have to disprove that gender is a social construct, I didn't claim that it was and it was a bit foolish of me to fall into that argument. While it isn't a provable fact, I shouldn't have to disprove it.

The thing about this obsession with gender is it can’t account for those who - like myself - diverge significantly from gender stereotypes but have never doubted they are women.
I deal with my failure to align with current ideas about gender by recognising them as bollocks.

Still screaming, you are one confused cookie.
If you are saying something which is intangible can in fact be evidenced objectively, which you were, it’s on you to prove that. You can’t.

@NoSquirrels thank you, you've said what I have clumsily tried to say and why self ID is not a positive thing.

Given that this thread is still going, and going in circles with the No Arguments Against Self ID theme, I’ll leave this petition here again for anyone like stillstanding who loves a vigorous debate, and also for people like me who think it’s all bollocks that biology is outdated now:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

Yadnbu

You haven't read about predatory men sexually assualting girls in Target in the States after they were made gender neutral?

I haven't no but I don't disbelieve you but we're not talking about men in gender neutral loos, a thing that would certainly happy with gender neutral loos, we're talking about trans women in women's loos or men pretending to be women in women's loos.

In the feminist sections is a thread called 'spurious things we can throw at people while foaming over self id', (actually that might not be its real name but you understand the tone) and that links to a document that lists, what it claims are all the sexual attacks carried out by trans women, transvestites, men who have dressed up as women. If there's an item of women's wear involved, it's mentioned. It claims that there have been approx 80 attacks on women, in loos, worldwide, in the last 19 years.

While I take all of those attacks seriously and never condone any violence against women, more women have been killed by having vending machines fall on them during the same time period.

Sadly, sex attackers don't have to dress up as women to gain access to women. Most women are attacked in their own homes by their intimate partners.

I wonder how many "trans" threads where posters say they are bored with / want to shut down trans threads …
are started by posters wanting to shut down trans threads

There have been a lot lately, telling women to stop debating about self-ID
MN is one of the few places where we can debate, hence why we often come here to do so

As a proud TERF,

I think people should be treated according to their biological sex when biological sex matters,
which is anywhere that some (real) women may feel vulnerable / embarrassed / disadvantaged by male-bodied people with male strength, who have experienced male privilege

e.g. sport, changing rooms, HCPs, hospital wards, prisons etc

We should be respectful and kind to those with body dysphoria, as with any other mental illness,
but not extend this to reducing the existing rights or safe spaces of women

Let's campaign together to build additional separate safe spaces and separate sports to improve the quality of life for trans people without reducing it for women

If biology doesn’t determine male or female then does it determine race?

Is Rachel Dolezal Black or White?

www.nytimes.com/2015/06/17/us/rachel-dolezal-nbc-today-show.html

In what way am I biologically driven to wear make up, like pink and unable to do anything vaguely scientific or [insert your own gender stereotype here].

You wouldn't be biologically driven to do those things explicitly, but you may well be biologically drawn to signal your belonging to the group "women" by utilising whatever cultural markers are prevalent. So that may be by liking pink, wearing makeup, wearing certain clothes, or indeed any stereotypical practices that might identify to others as a woman.

The thing about this obsession with gender is it can’t account for those who - like myself - diverge significantly from gender stereotypes but have never doubted they are women.

Conversely to my above statement there may also be a million reasons why you might want to deliberately distance yourself from cultural stereotypes, such as wanting to present as a certain type of woman - e.g. the type who rejects norms - because amongst other things that's kind of cool. Alternatively you might just not feel the urge to signal your womanhood as strongly as others do, or perhaps you feel it is sufficiently expressed through other means such as motherhood or what have you. Basically there are millions of potential reasons.

I think that's the bottom line. With all the fear that everyone has tried to put into your about a mass of 'men' invading these spaces, it just hasn't happened. Trans women use loos etc., the same as they always have and it has no impact ,whatsoever, on the vast majority of people. The men aren't coming for your loo paper
My issue isn't with actual transsexual women using ladies toilets. That has been happening for years.

The issue is that the entire narrative has shifted. There used ti be transvestites and transsexuals. They have suffered horrible abuse and should be protected from it.

Then suddenly a group of radical TRA came about and started claiming sex and gender are the same thing. Then they started redefining what it is to be a woman. Then they claimed female stereotypes for their own new definition og woman (which biological women have fought to erode over time). Then when women have challengedthis silly fantasy world they have been silenced, doxxed, harrassed, called bigot and transphobe.

The men with fetishes, the misogynistic men, the men who want claim lesbians should sleep with them, to claim female spaces and then mansplain are all coming from a perspective of male privilege which they want to maintain whilst wearing dresses. They are a danger to the freedom and safety of women and transwomen.

Is it not interesting that the TRAs are mainly Male to Female transwomen? Is it not interesting that the biologically male TRAs are telling lesbians they should sleep with them (but not heterosexual men)?

Their entire agenda is damaging for women and transwomen alike.