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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wonder what the world is coming to when the Daily Fail comments section shows more tolerance and understanding than Mumsnet

486 replies

worldsupsidedown · 27/03/2018 10:09

So, I've name changed as I am thoroughly ashamed of having clicked on the side bar of shame, also having been reading an article in the DM at all.

However, there is a story about a very sweet couple - both, wait for it transpeople .

He was a woman and she was a man, they are young and in love, hard working, successful and when you scroll down to the comments are widely accepted by the readers. I mean these readers are generally considered to be the most closed minded and prejudiced people, but EVEN they are OK with it. Because you know what, it is OK.

However, here on Mumsnet no, no. no. He (the transman who was born a woman) would have to come and change alongside your children, get changed in your female only changing rooms, be in your 'safe spaces'. She (the very beautiful, very feminine transwoman who was born a man) would have to go and change with the men, wouldn't be allowed to use the ladies, wouldn't be allowed to access rape crisis if she was assaulted in those places....if you all got your way.

How the fuckity fuck can anyone justify their batshit opinions of that, the world has gone mad if you think that these people are not allowed to live their lives as the gender they identify with because of your petty prejudice and bigotry. Essentially it is none of your business.

So, AIBU to think WTF is going on when the DM and their readership is a more tolerant and accepting place than here?

OP posts:
Truscum · 27/03/2018 22:31

This whole thing reeks of fishy bastard propaganda.

Stillscreaming · 27/03/2018 22:37

I deal with my failure to align with current ideas about gender by recognising them as bollocks.

That's nice and good for you. I've never really understood what it is to be a woman either. I know what it's like to be me but I've no idea how much of that is 'me' and how much of that is 'woman' or my ethnicity or my social class. I'm still alright with understand that other people obviously feel differently about it all and that it, obviously, causes them great distress.

I also don't know what it's like to be anorexic or depressed and neither is visible either but I still believe that people have them.

Ereshkigal · 27/03/2018 22:37

Now can we have some fun on MN again please?

Do feel free not to post on threads you don't find fun. Or go and ice that cake.

RatRolyPoly · 27/03/2018 22:38

Let's campaign together to build additional separate safe spaces and separate sports to improve the quality of life for trans people without reducing it for women

FYI "women's sport" does not belong to women, just as the league I currently compete in does not "belong" to me and my fellow competitors. It is a structure provided to me (as "women's sport" is to women) by that sport's authority to facilitate their over-arching aim of inclusivity through safe and competitive participation for all.

To try and twist a structure that exists purely and solely for the purpose of inclusion into a means by which to exclude others is beyond the pale, coming from a sportswoman.

Hands of women's sport. It doesn't belong to you.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 27/03/2018 22:38

Garden in a my ideal work gender wouldn’t exist as a concept. You wouldn’t need to identify with or reject a set of stereotypes based on your biological sex. How much of do not identify with sex is do not identify with the gender stereotypes (that is a genuine question - I am not presuming I know how trans people and gender fluid people would answer).

Ereshkigal · 27/03/2018 22:40

This thread is like some sort of convention for the utterly hard of thinking. It's always edifying though to let that internalised misogyny out! Go for it!

RatRolyPoly · 27/03/2018 22:43

Did you come here just to throw insults around Ereshkigal or do you have anything constructive to add?

Mercison · 27/03/2018 22:44

Hands of women's sport. It doesn't belong to you

The excited vitriol behind statements like this never ceases to repulse me

I think you'll find that it does, but dream on

Wheresmyfuckingcupcake · 27/03/2018 22:45

I don’t dispute that those who feel distress at their failure to align with gender norms suffer genuine distress. That doesn’t mean their beliefs about gender are true.
Incidentally, I think the analogies you draw with anorexia and other forms of mental illness would cause you to be branded as a terf by those who hold that trans people are not suffering from mental illness at all ( confusingly, these same people offer copious evidence of suicide rates and the terrible mental distress caused to trans children forced to endure puberty etc - but hey, logic is for terfs, right?)

Ereshkigal · 27/03/2018 22:45

Whereas, in actual fact, Mermaids support families and are incredibly good at what they do.

If the families do exactly what Mermaids evangelises about. Or are you saying the people who have experienced their "support" and were left out in the cold were lying?

For instance when they came on to MN to dox a parent? Do you think that is ethical behaviour?

Mermaids are a dreadful organisation.

RatRolyPoly · 27/03/2018 22:48

Oh gosh, more delightful engagement from the "we just want debate" brigade. No vitriol here I'm afraid, just a rather engaged lifelong sportswoman actually with seemingly a far greater handle on the focus and ethos of sports than you appear to have. Do you engage in sport yourself? Are you aware that inclusivity is a fundamental principle?

RatRolyPoly · 27/03/2018 22:49

Hands off women's sport. It doesn't belong to you

The excited vitriol behind statements like this never ceases to repulse me

I think you'll find that it does, but dream on

Oh gosh, more delightful engagement from the "we just want debate" brigade. No vitriol here I'm afraid, just a rather engaged lifelong sportswoman actually with seemingly a far greater handle on the focus and ethos of sports than you appear to have. Do you engage in sport yourself? Are you aware that inclusivity is a fundamental principle?

  • thought I'd better post again with the quote.
Irishfeminist · 27/03/2018 22:50

Ratrolypoly if inclusivity is so important in sport, why segregate by sex at all?

Ereshkigal · 27/03/2018 22:50

Maybe not, but you are (mis)quoting from a report that the Times had to retract and print an apology for. A report that found 40 more 'trans' prisoners than the prison service was aware of, which doesn't seem much but there are actually on 70, so adding 40 to 70 is quite a big proportion.

That "debunking" by a TRA such as the Independent is constantly platforming, was debunked in its turn by Andrew Gilligan. @DoctorW made the limitations very clear. And has defended her work here on Mumsnet. Perhaps you should do better research. You know, if you're more interested in accuracy than pushing your misogynistic agenda?

Mercison · 27/03/2018 22:51

Yes "I engage in" and coach sport. I have worked in some very deprived areas of the country, coaching and attempting to engage girls and women in sport. I love it Smile

Mercison · 27/03/2018 22:53

And the girls I coach very much feel that their sport belongs to them Smile you can rubbish that as much as you like

RatRolyPoly · 27/03/2018 22:53

Oh good, me too Mercison! You are at least acting out the principle of sport outreach and inclusivity, even if you don't believe it.

Irishfeminist I'm going to see if I can find an old post of mine to copy, hang on...

RatRolyPoly · 27/03/2018 22:55

And the girls I coach very much feel that their sport belongs to them

Sport belongs to everyone Mercison, but it does not belong to anyone to the exclusion of someone else.

Ereshkigal · 27/03/2018 22:55

Makes me question whether I'm a feminist at all.

Yes, perhaps you actually aren't. I'll give you a clue, its about women's rights.

Wheresmyfuckingcupcake · 27/03/2018 22:56

So why does women’s sport exist as a separate category then? Surely it’s raisin d’etre is to be for women to the exclusion of men?
Or is this Alice through the looking glass time?

Wheresmyfuckingcupcake · 27/03/2018 22:57

Raisin d’etre! Snort. I love iPhones.

Ereshkigal · 27/03/2018 22:57

There is so much wrong with that estimate. Firstly the 650k figure, trans people in the UK haven't been counted, we have no idea about the true number. Most of us can't agree on what a trans person is. Stonewall include loads of groups of people who would never want to change their gender, transvestites, cross dressers, etc.

Best take that it up with Stonewall then dear. And GIRES, where those figures come from.

Irishfeminist · 27/03/2018 22:57

You can't include men in women's sport ffs. I'm not bothering to engage anymore, you can keep your cut and paste job.

RatRolyPoly · 27/03/2018 22:58

So why does women’s sport exist as a separate category then? Surely it’s raisin d’etre is to be for women to the exclusion of men?

Hang on, I'm firing up the laptop, can't be doing this on my phone. That is NOT it's raison d'etre.

Mercison · 27/03/2018 22:58

Not sure why you think I don't believe in inclusivity? I wonder if men's sport should be expected to adapt to offer a safe space to men who identify as women? Wouldn't it be good if they did?