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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wonder what the world is coming to when the Daily Fail comments section shows more tolerance and understanding than Mumsnet

486 replies

worldsupsidedown · 27/03/2018 10:09

So, I've name changed as I am thoroughly ashamed of having clicked on the side bar of shame, also having been reading an article in the DM at all.

However, there is a story about a very sweet couple - both, wait for it transpeople .

He was a woman and she was a man, they are young and in love, hard working, successful and when you scroll down to the comments are widely accepted by the readers. I mean these readers are generally considered to be the most closed minded and prejudiced people, but EVEN they are OK with it. Because you know what, it is OK.

However, here on Mumsnet no, no. no. He (the transman who was born a woman) would have to come and change alongside your children, get changed in your female only changing rooms, be in your 'safe spaces'. She (the very beautiful, very feminine transwoman who was born a man) would have to go and change with the men, wouldn't be allowed to use the ladies, wouldn't be allowed to access rape crisis if she was assaulted in those places....if you all got your way.

How the fuckity fuck can anyone justify their batshit opinions of that, the world has gone mad if you think that these people are not allowed to live their lives as the gender they identify with because of your petty prejudice and bigotry. Essentially it is none of your business.

So, AIBU to think WTF is going on when the DM and their readership is a more tolerant and accepting place than here?

OP posts:
YourWanMajella · 27/03/2018 23:33

Keep saying that but understand that you don't own the world, no one needs your consent to access the bathroom they feel most comfortable in. There is no sex police on the door and there never has been

Bollocks. Of course there has. Men are not welcome in womens single sex spaces and we want to keep it that way.
The fact that you think men don't need womens consent to enter anywhere they please is extremely worrying.

RatRolyPoly · 27/03/2018 23:34

And that spaces are segregated by sex for reasons.

And those that are segregated for good reasons will remain segregated - to the exclusion of transwomen - as per the Equality Act ("a proportionate means to a legitimate aim").

You know that.

Stillscreaming · 27/03/2018 23:35

And that spaces are segregated by sex for reasons.

You can keep saying this, you can even click your heels while you're doing it but it's not true.

I'm not arguing for men to be allowed into women spaces, I'm saying that trans women, rightly, use the women's loo right now and the we haven't gone to hell in a hand basket.

Stillscreaming · 27/03/2018 23:37

Men are not welcome in womens single sex spaces and we want to keep it that way.

We're not talking about men, we're talking about trans women. Although men could access women's loo and I'm sure some have but its not the point at issue.

RatRolyPoly · 27/03/2018 23:37

And by the way, women are pushing for better use of the exemptions in the EA too.

I have said time and time again that I fully support people going after the companies and authorities who are failing to use their powers in law to keep women safe. Please, go after those people, make them shoulder the burden of women's safety - don't put it on transwomen!

ThymeLord · 27/03/2018 23:40

Why do we, we being women, have to give twenty million reasons to explain why we want to keep our spaces? Why can't men give up their spaces for TW, who are a subset of men. Why's it on women? I don't think it's fair that I have to list all my reasons here. One being rape, another being sexual assault and a third being domestic violence. Are my reasons OK to say NO. I don't want men, albeit men in dresses, or men with lobbed off dicks, in my spaces. Why don't my feelz count?

Ereshkigal · 27/03/2018 23:41

Keep saying that but understand that you don't own the world, no one needs your consent to access the bathroom they feel most comfortable in. There is no sex police on the door and there never has been.

If these male people had any empathy or decency they wouldn't violate women's boundaries. The fact that they do, is a massive red flag. You even admit yourself that Stonewall in their wisdom have sheltered a lot of people under the trans umbrella who possibly shouldn't be there. Consent is key here. I do not consent, and I will keep saying that I don't consent. I have boundaries, I have feelings and I have a right to privacy and dignity. And I will keep asserting these things. And I will keep posting on threads, and talking about it, and raising awareness of what is happening and how women are being thrown merrily under the bus by virtue signallers who don't give a fuck about actual women's rights. Only those of narcissistic males like Jane Fae, Shon Faye, Lily Madigan and Paris Lees.

Ereshkigal · 27/03/2018 23:42

I have said time and time again that I fully support people going after the companies and authorities who are failing to use their powers in law to keep women safe

I don't care in the slightest what you think about anything. I'll do and say what I see fit.

RatRolyPoly · 27/03/2018 23:43

I think because it's called discrimination ThymeLord, unless you are prepared to give those very good reasons.

It's all covered in the Equality Act.

Ereshkigal · 27/03/2018 23:44

Why's it on women? I don't think it's fair that I have to list all my reasons here. One being rape, another being sexual assault and a third being domestic violence. Are my reasons OK to say NO. I don't want men, albeit men in dresses, or men with lobbed off dicks, in my spaces. Why don't my feelz count?

Because these feminists of the year don't actually care about the feelings of women, only those of men.

Datun · 27/03/2018 23:44

I read the first page of that thread when it was first started; I'm not on Twitter, I don't even know who that person is, but they wrote a pretty stupid thing on Twitter. Is there a thread for every stupid thing someone writes on Twitter or is it only if they're trans? (I assume that person's trans.)

It's relevant, because that 'stupid person' also gave evidence to Maria Millers transgender equality report, representing trans people.

Before he became a transactivist and got invited on to all the chat shows to talk about trans rights, he advocated for the availability of extreme porn. Not just BDSM stuff, but:

"An act threatening a person's life
An act which results (or is likely to result) in serious injury to a person's anus, breasts or genitals
An act which involves (or appears to involve) sexual interference with a human corpse
A person performing (or appearing to perform) an act of intercourse (or oral sex) with an animal (whether dead or alive)

and a reasonable person looking at the image would think that any such person (or animal) was real."

YourWanMajella · 27/03/2018 23:45

We're not talking about men, we're talking about trans women. Although men could access women's loo and I'm sure some have but its not the point at issue

We're not though, because with Self ID we are talking about MEN.
Got a penis? You're a man.

RatRolyPoly · 27/03/2018 23:45

I don't care in the slightest what you think about anything. I'll do and say what I see fit.

Of course you will Ereshkigal, although I'm not quite sure why you're telling me (in the context of the conversation). And for what it's worth you go for it! Gotta do what you believe in, even if i don't agree.

weneedtotalk · 27/03/2018 23:45

I don’t know OP, how would you feel about trans-race?
How would you feel about a trans-race person saying that they are oppressed & the people who didn’t accept them into their communities were bigots?
How would you feel if they had a really caricature version of their new race?
How would you feel about them denying they were ever white (& denying they had had white privilege)
People should be able to live their lives as they wish, but the denial of biology stings a bit.

Stillscreaming · 27/03/2018 23:46

I don't care in the slightest what you think about anything. I'll do and say what I see fit.

That's grand but don't claim to be talking for 'women' when you speaking for yourself. Don't claim that this is actually about new laws, don't claim that it's about fear. Admit that there are people you feel uncomfortable with and you don't want to share a bathroom, that you don't own, with them.

ThymeLord · 27/03/2018 23:47

It's discrimination to say I don't want to share a bathroom with a man when being around men in situations like that make me feel frightened? No, it isn't. That's why sex segregation exists. I won't be gaslighted into saying that a man in a dress in my bathroom is a woman. You're ignoring my reasons for wanting a female only space in order to prioritise a man's feelings. Why do you think that's OK?

RatRolyPoly · 27/03/2018 23:48

Sounds like a nut job Datun, and easily identified as such by Ms. Miller et al I should imagine. I presume that information is available to her on Google?

Stillscreaming · 27/03/2018 23:53

That's why sex segregation exists.

We don't have sex segregated bathroom but you know that. You know that you've never had a sex test on the way into a bathroom. You know that you've been sharing bathrooms with trans people for years, why are you frightened now?

Ereshkigal · 27/03/2018 23:56

No imagined that narcissists would try to claim that toilets (what's this American "bathrooms" nonsense, you sound like you're reading off a script) were segregated on the basis of internal "gender identity" rather than the clearly observable classification of sex.

NoSquirrels · 27/03/2018 23:57

We're not talking about men, we're talking about trans women.

@stillscreaming

The thing is, at some point in any of these threads it comes down to this:

Are trans women men, or are they women?

The thing is, they’re NOT women, not in the sense of biology. In that sense, they’re men.

But they suffer discrimination akin but not the same as the discrimination women face, so they need protection akin to but not the same as women.

How should we treat trans people?

I say - third space, be proud of trans.

General discourse says - trans women ARE women. If you disagree you’re a BIGOT and INTOLERANT and On The Wrong Side of History.

Then I am pushed to say Fuck You, General Discourse - consider biology and critical thinking, you fucking numpties.

But it would be better all round if neither side pushed the other to swearing and name calling.

RatRolyPoly · 27/03/2018 23:58

You're ignoring my reasons for wanting a female only space in order to prioritise a man's feelings. Why do you think that's OK?

I just reread your earlier post Thyme and it wasn't clear you were talking about yourself on a personal level; I apologise if you felt I was dismissing your feelings.

What I'm actually saying is that any space which excludes a group of people can only do so for good reasons, and it can only do so in so far as is necessary to achieve that legitimate aim - no further. That's not ignoring a woman's feelings in deference to a man's, that's a fair way to ensure people's needs are met as individuals whilst others are not unfairly discriminated against.

Ereshkigal · 27/03/2018 23:58

You're ignoring my reasons for wanting a female only space in order to prioritise a man's feelings. Why do you think that's OK?

Yes I'd like an answer to this specific question too.

Ereshkigal · 28/03/2018 00:00

What I'm actually saying is that any space which excludes a group of people can only do so for good reasons

Who arbitrarily has decided that excluding men isn't for a good reason? This is why we are going to challenge it. There is a conflict here. It's a zero sum game.

RatRolyPoly · 28/03/2018 00:00

I do love your turn of phrase Nosquirrels

But it would be better all round if neither side pushed the other to swearing and name calling

And YY to this.

ThymeLord · 28/03/2018 00:00

I've always been frightened going into toilets knowing I'm vulnerable there. Is that OK? Do my feelz count? I've shared a bathroom with a transsexual before. There's a TW in my sleepy Lancashire town. She's very respectful of women's boundaries. We've chatted. She knows she's a man but appreciates being treated "as a woman". I don't need to provide a list of reasons why I want to keep women's spaces for women. I just do. End of. I'll stand next to any trans person and wave whatever placard I need to wave to get them whatever rights they feel they don't have. Can they have mine as a woman? No.