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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wonder what the world is coming to when the Daily Fail comments section shows more tolerance and understanding than Mumsnet

486 replies

worldsupsidedown · 27/03/2018 10:09

So, I've name changed as I am thoroughly ashamed of having clicked on the side bar of shame, also having been reading an article in the DM at all.

However, there is a story about a very sweet couple - both, wait for it transpeople .

He was a woman and she was a man, they are young and in love, hard working, successful and when you scroll down to the comments are widely accepted by the readers. I mean these readers are generally considered to be the most closed minded and prejudiced people, but EVEN they are OK with it. Because you know what, it is OK.

However, here on Mumsnet no, no. no. He (the transman who was born a woman) would have to come and change alongside your children, get changed in your female only changing rooms, be in your 'safe spaces'. She (the very beautiful, very feminine transwoman who was born a man) would have to go and change with the men, wouldn't be allowed to use the ladies, wouldn't be allowed to access rape crisis if she was assaulted in those places....if you all got your way.

How the fuckity fuck can anyone justify their batshit opinions of that, the world has gone mad if you think that these people are not allowed to live their lives as the gender they identify with because of your petty prejudice and bigotry. Essentially it is none of your business.

So, AIBU to think WTF is going on when the DM and their readership is a more tolerant and accepting place than here?

OP posts:
RatRolyPoly · 27/03/2018 22:59

Ah, I see Irish, big on the debate aren't we.

Waddlelikeapenguin · 27/03/2018 22:59

Stillscreaming The entire medical profession don't think that trans women are men.

Confused is that uk or worldwide? Grin you like data, can you post a link to that survey?
While woman means adult female human then yep people with medical degrees can identify that transwomen are indeed men/adult male humans.

@Truscum agreed!

Ereshkigal · 27/03/2018 22:59

You to recognise that you are talking about human beings with feelings

Yes, women also have feelings. Let's hear more about those in this debate. Let's have a little recognition that women are people and our feelings should count as much as those of men.

Wheresmyfuckingcupcake · 27/03/2018 22:59

So the answer to my question would appear to be “yes.”
Don’t bother with the laptop. My patience with this idiocy has expired for the evening.

RatRolyPoly · 27/03/2018 23:00

Mercison you do understand that it isn't the men in "men's sport" who are running the show, don't you? You are aware of sports governing bodies, correct?

RatRolyPoly · 27/03/2018 23:01

Another one who just wants to have the conversation, hey? I wonder what sort of debate it would be if all the gender critical feminists didn't fancy sticking around to hear the other side.

Mercison · 27/03/2018 23:02

rat don't get too over excited, I'm going to bed. Happy to talk more tomorrow.

RatRolyPoly · 27/03/2018 23:03

No probs Mercison, sleep well :)

Wheresmyfuckingcupcake · 27/03/2018 23:06

On the contrary, I think you’ll find it’s the pro trans contingent that lobs in the offensive unsubstantiated assertion then legs it.
I’d love to pretend I had the patience to read your explanation of why women’s sport does not in fact exist for women. But I’d be lying. Walliwing through this nonsense is tedious and one does lose the will to live in the end.

Ereshkigal · 27/03/2018 23:08

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Ereshkigal · 27/03/2018 23:09

The excited vitriol behind statements like this never ceases to repulse me

I know. To take joy in fucking women over.

Wheresmyfuckingcupcake · 27/03/2018 23:11

On balance I would have to say this trans stuff disproves the notion that the human race has advanced out of the age of superstition. Some of it has. So much is still there and still capable of believing things which fly in the face of biological fact because it suits how they “feel” about things. I want this to be true, therefore it is.
On that depressing note I am going to bed.

Stillscreaming · 27/03/2018 23:13

Yes, women also have feelings. Let's hear more about those in this debate. Let's have a little recognition that women are people and our feelings should count as much as those of men.

Now, I had my womanism check by Rat earlier in the thread, she looked at my FB page and everything. As a woman who doesn't give a shite about self id, why do my views matter less than yours?

Is there a special types of woman who's views matter most? The petition that's been posted on almost every page of this and every, thread hadn't quite hit 10k signatures the last time I looked, why should that tiny minority of women have more of a say than the rest of us?

Ereshkigal · 27/03/2018 23:13

It's pure magical thinking. Even gender cultists like some of our esteemed posters here don't think cross dressers, genderfluid etc should be included. But they have been, so you can hardly expect women to stay quiet about it.

Ereshkigal · 27/03/2018 23:15

As a woman who doesn't give a shite about self id, why do my views matter less than yours?

Because it's not about "views". It's about consent. A large number of women do not consent to males in female intimate spaces and situations. And we are going to keep saying that,

RatRolyPoly · 27/03/2018 23:15

In response to another poster on the following thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3188264-Am-I-alone-in-wondering-where-the-WOMEN-wanting-to-trans-are?pg=23&order=

We aren't born as an empty shell with a few removable bits we can swap and become male or female. This is why we should not accept men taking part in women's sport

I say this with the greatest respect aRespectable, and I say it as a sportswoman competing in formal leagues for twenty years now, but this is not why we have women's sport.

We have women's sport for the same reason we have leagues, age categories, disability categories and sex categories. The primary purpose of all of these things is to ensure as many people as possible are able to participate in that sport in a way which is both safe and competitive for them and the other competitors - i.e. no forgone conclusion.

This is the very ethos of sportsmanship, to be inclusive, safe and competitive. I'm afraid women's sport is primarily to facilitate these things, not the feminist ideal of promoting female-only achievement. I say this as a sportswoman first and foremost, and I know my feelings are shared by at least my own sport's governing body.

Governing bodies have the means within the law to set the criteria they feel are necessary to include transwomen whilst not risking the safety of other competitors or to the detriment of competition. There's an argument that they haven't got the balance quite right, and I'm prepared to concede that in many cases. Plus the question of what to do both at elite level and at school level are complex, and I don't think we currently have the best solution. But overall I think it's fair to say sport welcomes transwomen.

Stillscreaming · 27/03/2018 23:26

So much is still there and still capable of believing things which fly in the face of biological fact because it suits how they “feel” about things.

No one is denying the existence of biological difference, some of us totally understand the difference between sex and gender and that the two different things have two different words to describe them because they aren't the same thing. I know there's a tad more to me than some chromosomes and a flush of hormones, that not everything that makes me a woman is a social construct.

I knew that many women with those same chromosomes and the same hormones, raised with similar social boundaries are doing 'women' in a very different way to me, some of them are even being men.

freespeechforwomen · 27/03/2018 23:27

Must admit, I am surprised that Stillcreaming and RatRolyPoly weren't all over this thread to put everyone right:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3205176-dv-gone-wrong

RatRolyPoly · 27/03/2018 23:28

A large number of women do not consent to males in female intimate spaces and situations.

And I don't consent to sharing changing rooms with foreigners, or toilets, and I don't want them in our prisons - they're our prisons - we were here first and me and my mates say no!

Obviously we don't say no - I am a bloody "foreigner" after all - but what's "consent" got to do with it? We're a democracy after all. Do you think you can just throw that emotionally loaded word onto the mix and make it a thing you can't possibly deny a woman?

Well I'm a woman and I wanted a Labour government. This Tory one is bad for women. I don't consent.

Stillscreaming · 27/03/2018 23:28

confused is that uk or worldwide? grin you like data, can you post a link to that survey?

In the UK, if you pitch up to your GP, you get a referral to a gender identity clinic, you're not sent to the mental health clinic.

Ereshkigal · 27/03/2018 23:28

It's not the same thing. And you know it. Absurd.

Ereshkigal · 27/03/2018 23:31

You know full well we're talking about letting men in women's spaces. And that spaces are segregated by sex for reasons. Everyone on this thread knows that, so you can drop the faux innocence.

RatRolyPoly · 27/03/2018 23:31

I read the first page of that thread when it was first started; I'm not on Twitter, I don't even know who that person is, but they wrote a pretty stupid thing on Twitter. Is there a thread for every stupid thing someone writes on Twitter or is it only if they're trans? (I assume that person's trans.)

Stillscreaming · 27/03/2018 23:31

Because it's not about "views". It's about consent. A large number of women do not consent to males in female intimate spaces and situations. And we are going to keep saying that,

Keep saying that but understand that you don't own the world, no one needs your consent to access the bathroom they feel most comfortable in. There is no sex police on the door and there never has been.

Ereshkigal · 27/03/2018 23:32

And by the way, women are pushing for better use of the exemptions in the EA too. Not just against self ID.