To wonder what the world is coming to when the Daily Fail comments section shows more tolerance and understanding than Mumsnet

[worldsupsidedown]

So, I've name changed as I am thoroughly ashamed of having clicked on the side bar of shame, also having been reading an article in the DM at all.

However, there is a story about a very sweet couple - both, wait for it transpeople .

He was a woman and she was a man, they are young and in love, hard working, successful and when you scroll down to the comments are widely accepted by the readers. I mean these readers are generally considered to be the most closed minded and prejudiced people, but EVEN they are OK with it. Because you know what, it is OK.

However, here on Mumsnet no, no. no. He (the transman who was born a woman) would have to come and change alongside your children, get changed in your female only changing rooms, be in your 'safe spaces'. She (the very beautiful, very feminine transwoman who was born a man) would have to go and change with the men, wouldn't be allowed to use the ladies, wouldn't be allowed to access rape crisis if she was assaulted in those places....if you all got your way.

How the fuckity fuck can anyone justify their batshit opinions of that, the world has gone mad if you think that these people are not allowed to live their lives as the gender they identify with because of your petty prejudice and bigotry. Essentially it is none of your business.

So, AIBU to think WTF is going on when the DM and their readership is a more tolerant and accepting place than here?

@weneedtotalk the race analogy is extremely apt.

Can't be arsed to read the full thread

Op I'm cringing for you honestly . How embarrassing to write such a load of drivel !!

That's grand but don't claim to be talking for 'women' when you speaking for yourself

I'll speak however I like thanks. I don't require your seal of approval. Women, in my experience, do not want males in female spaces and certain positions and services. And even if not all women agree like your splendid selves, we have the right to consideration of our personal feelings every much bit as much as a few TIMs do.

Op I'm cringing for you honestly . How embarrassing to write such a load of drivel !!

The cringe factor only increases.

Okay, well I'm pleased to be heading to bed on that note of everyone's individual voice being valid, because it's a rare thing that I think we can agree on. Night all!

Night Rat

What do those of you who are so insistent that there should be penis free spaces think of the battles that women like Rachel Heyhoe-Flint fought against vagina free spaces like the MCC?

It's a genuine question. Do you think men deserve single sex spaces as well?

If your arguement is that single sex spaces are simply a safety thing for women, then once again I would ask why you assume that everyone with a dick will be a dick and abuse women?

I don't think the issue is merely about safety. And neither do others. Learn to read.

Sounds like a nut job Datun, and easily identified as such by Ms. Miller et al I should imagine. I presume that information is available to her on Google?

It is. Like it's available to everyone else.

She didn't do any due diligence.

Unless you asume she did do some due diligence and is okay for a man promoting sick pornography and minimising domestic violence, to get anywhere near a discussion about access to women's spaces and the definition of the word woman.

@RatRolyPoly the thing is, I’m still at the stage where I think it’s worthwhile to stay civilised and break it down and understand all viewpoints and “reach out” to people just wondering if actually it’s a bit odd to accept that a trans out-and-proud couple have a headline story in a tabloid and then when they say “but of course we’ve been a girl/boy all along so why are you talking about it and saying we’re not “real” girls/boys, how bigoted” might be feeling a bit

I think those people deserve a clear concise argument to articulate the cognitive dissonance of being told you are a horrible human for believing in a biological binary.

But fuck me, the temptation is strong to scream “WTF are you on about? Possessing a cock = man and can NEVER = woman.”

So I understand completely the “hysteria” of this argument. And @stillscreaming is just winding it up and enjoying the inevitable. Fine - debate is good. I don’t think anyone on MN who is truly gender critical will fall at being challenged.

Cos the truth is, it’s very grey. Gender critical feminists cannot say “This will happen”. Trans people cannot say “This will not happen.”

Law-makers need to decide based on all available evidence.

I think when men are murdered at the rate of two per week, by men, they can campaign for their own space and I'll back them. As it stands, two women a week are murdered by their partners. I think that should be the focus, no?

The thing is, they’re NOT women, not in the sense of biology. In that sense, they’re men.

I'm not the thought police, you can think whatever you want but trans women with a GRC are legally women and can use women's loos as freely as you or I. That's been the case for the last 14 years and it been fine.

If you don't 'believe' that there is any difference between men and trans women then self id isn't going to make any difference to you becasue you already 'believe' that men are accessing women's loos.

MrsMcgary
It’s not about assuming everyone with a dick will abuse women, but realising that they’re ‘equipment’ is capable of far far more damage than ours.

As it stands, two women a week are murdered by their partners. I think that should be the focus, no?

I really wish it was the focus, maybe when we stop kavetching about trans women in loos, we can move onto where the real violence is happening, to women in their own homes, committed by those who claim to love them.

OP didn't do themselves any favours calling us all cunts did they? tsk

My y8 child has just had a lesson at school where they decided that it was a word that was offensive to women and no longer acceptable, I'm pleased to day.

...but realising that they’re ‘equipment’ is capable of far far more damage than ours.

No one rapes becasue thy have a penis, they rape becasue they're rapists. The idea of men innocently running along behind their dicks, not being able to help themselves, does women more damage that trans women in bathrooms.

OP who are you even arguing with?! No one is upset about these two. In fact, there's a thread in Feminism Chat (where all the TERFs go to TERF out) about how wrong and offensive this headline is ("Tran and wife"), all supportive comments and no one taking exception to this couple.

I can't be bothered staying the millions of reasons why sex segregated spaces need protecting, it's been done to death, but just so you know, the definition of woman is not "lovely and feminine".

The ftm trans was bitching online about the headline, saying she was never a woman.

So what did they transition from?

World has gone mad

No one rapes becasue thy have a penis, they rape becasue they're rapists.

Yes, that is very clear. Did you think this is about something else? Of course we don't think that disembodied penises rape. Male entitlement is a large part of it, as is not really seeing women as people and centring your own desires and feelings over theirs. This applies to trans identified males at least as much as it does to any other male.

'World has gone mad

Are you Richard Littlejohn, I've never met a famous person online before?

*It's a genuine question. Do you think men deserve single sex spaces as well?^

Yes, I do. In addition to mixed sex and female-only spaces.

So the MCC needed to become mixed, because it was failing to represent the women’s cricket side of the sport. It was an arbitrary exclusion because the club was not to promote sex/gender, but to bring together cricketers.

Freemason’s, Boy’s Brigade, prostrate cancer support groups or male victims if domestic violence - segregated away.

It's not about transwomen in loos though. That's the really simplistic version. I have NO problem with transsexual men, who want to be women, using my toilets. I'd be frightened but if you pass then I will assume you're safe, because I've no choice. I'm not happy with it but I've been socialised as a woman so I will pretend. Actual women might though. Why can't you understand that women have rights?

@stillscreaming

I'm not the thought police, you can think whatever you want but trans women with a GRC are legally women and can use women's loos as freely as you or I. That's been the case for the last 14 years and it been fine.

If you don't 'believe' that there is any difference between men and trans women then self id isn't going to make any difference to you becasue you already 'believe' that men are accessing women's loos.

You and I both know you’re either being a Goady Fucker or Deliberately Disingenuous or Just Thick because I can remember what you’ve said in this thread so I’m sure you can remember what I’ve said too.

For the avoidance of doubt, or in case you are confused:

I am FOR a GRC and treating those individuals as the law provides.

I am AGAINST Self ID because it has no checks and balances.

I will treat ANY individual with respect.

I believe regardless of my social conditioning that biology is a fact and trans women are not biological women, even if afforded the protections of the law and the courtesies of civilised society.

Thank you NoSquirrels.

I disagree with you, but I can fully respect the sense of your argument.

I'd like to hear why my feelz don't count. Why don't I matter? Men have hurt me repeatedly, over 25 years. Why don't my special feelz count? It can't surely be because I'm just a woman, can it?