To wonder what the world is coming to when the Daily Fail comments section shows more tolerance and understanding than Mumsnet

[worldsupsidedown]

So, I've name changed as I am thoroughly ashamed of having clicked on the side bar of shame, also having been reading an article in the DM at all.

However, there is a story about a very sweet couple - both, wait for it transpeople .

He was a woman and she was a man, they are young and in love, hard working, successful and when you scroll down to the comments are widely accepted by the readers. I mean these readers are generally considered to be the most closed minded and prejudiced people, but EVEN they are OK with it. Because you know what, it is OK.

However, here on Mumsnet no, no. no. He (the transman who was born a woman) would have to come and change alongside your children, get changed in your female only changing rooms, be in your 'safe spaces'. She (the very beautiful, very feminine transwoman who was born a man) would have to go and change with the men, wouldn't be allowed to use the ladies, wouldn't be allowed to access rape crisis if she was assaulted in those places....if you all got your way.

How the fuckity fuck can anyone justify their batshit opinions of that, the world has gone mad if you think that these people are not allowed to live their lives as the gender they identify with because of your petty prejudice and bigotry. Essentially it is none of your business.

So, AIBU to think WTF is going on when the DM and their readership is a more tolerant and accepting place than here?

As usual, the OP assumes that the fact that some of us have concerns about self-identification means we hate people who are transgender. Not so. I haven't read the article but if both parties have gender recognition certificates, fair enough. It's up to them how they want to live their lives.

The issue is about the clash between the rights of transgender people and the rights of women, and (separately) there are child protection issues. A wider issue is why so many people seem to have thrown out all common sense and scientific rigour and now ignore biological sex, which can't be changed, in favour of gender, which is a nebulous concept and depends on stereotypes.

My concerns are:

1. Women's sport is starting to be seriously compromised. Crime statistics are also starting to be skewed. The current crime statistics show that a number of women in the UK last year committed rape.

1. Children who are gender non-conforming are being pushed down a trans route when in fact they are absolutely fine as they are. Those with real gender dysphoria need psychotherapy, counselling, sympathetic support etc, not puberty blockers and a fast track to sterility. Surgery should be an absolute last resort, well into adult life, for those whose dysphoria can't be alleviated any other way. This is how things were until very recently indeed. Now we're seeing 18yos making the decision to have a double mastectomy and in some cases a hysterectomy as well. And sadly we're also starting to see young women in their 20s detransitioning and bitterly regretting what they did to their bodies a few years earlier, egged on by the echo chambers on Tumblr, Reddit etc.

1. Many gender non-conforming children eventually realise they are gay if they're given the time and space to work through these issues and experience puberty. The current approach of not giving them any time and making transition to another gender sound like a simple thing means that many of these young people will try to live as a heterosexual transgender person. So a natal female who is attracted to females doesn't live as a lesbian, she has surgery and lives as a man. And vice versa for boys. Surely this is homophobic? Why isn't it OK to be gay now?

1. Most of the older men transitioning are not having any 'bottom' surgery. 85% are estimated to be intact males and intent on staying that way. The general public doesn't know this, and assumes all transgender people are having surgery.

1. Free speech on this issue is being stifled. Meetings to discuss the GRA are routinely picketed by transactivists who are aggressive and try their best to damage the reputation of the venues that have agreed to hold meetings. There has been actual violence and intimidating behaviour towards gender critical feminists. None of the mainstream political parties has had a proper debate on whether changing the GRA is a good idea. Mumsnet is one of the only places on the internet where this can be discussed. Just discussing it is shouted down as abuse anywhere else.

1. Gender stereotypes are absolutely toxic. How many women live in accordance with them? Not many here, I'd guess. So why are we suddenly saying children who don't fall in line with stereotypes have a problem? Why can't men be more accepting of non-conforming men? Why can't we address the big issue of why so many young women growing up in a world saturated with porn are so disgusted and frightened by the changes they go through in puberty and the male attention they get as a result that they reject the whole idea of being female? Why aren't we doing more to tackle the huge problem of male violence and keeping people safe from it?

Thank you OP - it's so nice and so refreshing to have a trans thread which isn't transphobic or a thinly veiled attempt to whip up a frenzy of bigotry under the guise of concern for women. I thought this was a lovely story, and while MN unfortunately has a real problem when it comes to people who are trans it's nice to see that some are tolerant and accepting!

Please tell me the comment above about 'literal violence' is ironic?! Myself, I find it extraordinarily offensive to tell anyone who has ever been unfortunate enough to actually experience literal violence, you know, the one that breaks skin and bone and soul.

You do understand that it's not trans people who are the problem. It's self ID. You know, that thing that will put women and actual trans people at risk?

And it's transactivists who have created the problem, not feminists?

That's for reading the Daily Mail and trusting anything it or its posters say. You do realise you could probably find an article posted on the same day taking about a male murderer who has decided to transition and move to a female prison, or a trans woman winning a sporting event and how unfair it is, right?

This is the first time I've posted on a 'trans thread' but I've been reading and considering both sides of the GRA discussion here and on twitter. Some posters here have said some pretty nasty things but you know, I've seen trans activists and their allies advocate actual violence against women who disagree with them so I dunno...

the world has gone mad if you think that these people are not allowed to live their lives as the gender they identify with because of your petty prejudice and bigotry. Essentially it is none of your business.

I think ANYONE is allowed to live their life as they wish, in whatever gender they identify with, provided it does not adversely affect other people.

I think that’s a pretty normal sane view?

I am anti self-ID, which will have unintended consequences for women.

The law as it stands is fine, in my opinion. Demonstrate a commitment to living as the opposite sex, have it certified by professionals, gain the rights of that sex.

I think “what is the world coming to when anyone can claim they can be anything they want even when biology and science say otherwise?” is a more rational question.

So I signed the petition:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

I’m happy for this couple, that they’ve found each other and are in love.

But they’re also spokespeople for Mermaids who encourage young people to transition during puberty, and I’m not happy about that organisation.

As I am not a rabid petty bigot, I can have both opinions at the same time.

I suspect a lot if the DM readers would also not accept that these people are biologically the opposite sex to the one they were born with, despite accepting their happy relationship.

OP. You have totally missed the point.

Someone born a man who has fully transitioned can use the female facilities.
Someone born a woman who has fully transitioned can use the male facilities.
This is currently allowed and I haven’t seen any comments on mumsnet that think this shouldn’t be allowed.
I haven’t seen any comments against the wedding you mention. Personally I think they look happy which is great.

Self ID is the debate-inducing issue. It means that someone born a man, who lives as a man can one day say ‘I identify as a woman and want to be treated as one, and given access to your women only spaces’. No checks, no time period living as the opposite gender, no hormones, no treatment required. Surely you can see that would be open to manipulation?

Yabu OP and a bit of a plank

The issue is not and has NEVER been with post op transsexual woman accessing women’s spaces - it’s been with MEN self ID’ing to do so

So point spectacularly missed

Although I did object to the same trans woman being labelled as the first woman to serve on the front line as she isn’t - she’s the first trans woman to do so - because she joined up as a man

You've found your natural home then, haven't you?

bigot: a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions

Language matters.

Bigot is being misused when you lump the whole of “Mumsnet TERFs” as bigots when the vast majority of the 8,000+ people who have signed the petition are just women with a view on women’s rights under the law.

There may be some bigots among them but most “trans threads” on MN are full of people discussing different views.

I’m not a fucking bigot.

I actually can’t believe I’m on the side of a debate where my views that language and biology matter in law are “bigoted”.

The world truly has gone mad.

if both parties have gender recognition certificates, fair enough. It's up to them how they want to live their lives.

It doesn’t matter. Anybody of any sex can marry anyone of any sex they like so it’s totally irrelevant if they have a certificate or not. It’s not like they’re passing as a non-trans couple to get rights that wouldn’t be available to them otherwise. Sex is utterly irrelevant to civil marriage these days so this is just a non-story.

I agree with all your other points, but they’re just not relevant to this story.

surely the vast majority of Daily Mail comments come from men therefore self id doesn't affect them (unless they are trans). It probably doesnt even register on most mens radars what effects self ID will have

Headline:

PERSON MARRIES PERSON IN HAPPY WEDDING SHOCK

“We found love despite gender.”

The End.

Op no one cares about two trans people having a happy family, happy lives etc. Bloody good for them! Everyone should have the opportunity to have a contented life.

I’m a big old TERF though because I still believe the people you posted about are the sex they were born as despite the gender identity they have.

I don’t hate them, I’m not disgusted by them, I would happily stand beside them and fight for their rights against abuse BUT I will not call myself a cis woman to be able to call the trans woman a woman instead. Nope.

Try harder, OP.

I have a HUGE problem with this couple. Nothing to do with their choices or who they love but everything to do with there affiliation without Mermaids.
I suspect this happily married couple are a smoke screen and positive publicity for an organisation that are seriously damaging our children.

Anybody of any sex can marry anyone of any sex they like so it’s totally irrelevant if they have a certificate or not. It’s not like they’re passing as a non-trans couple to get rights that wouldn’t be available to them otherwise. Sex is utterly irrelevant to civil marriage these days so this is just a non-story.

^^ This. Happy for them both to have found love.

sorry - bloody autocorrect *with

I suspect this happily married couple are a smoke screen and positive publicity for an organisation that are seriously damaging our children

I’m afraid this is undoubtedly true.

I don’t like what the organisation they promote does or says.

But they deserve to be happily married.

Fair point about Mermaids. I suppose it is just a bit like ‘Look: you too can turn your weird gay kid into a nice normal heterosexual couple’. Didn’t think of it like that.

Thank you for posting this OP as it is nice to have positive trans threads here on MN. I find it hard to understand why MN allows some of the posts that they do which are very clearly transphobic. The majority of feminists may be worried about self identification here, and I do agree with many of their points. However it also gives others a platform to go around stating that trans women are men and should be treated as such, which I don't agree with.

My DP is a transitioning trans woman who is still some way off having a GRC, and yet there is no way she could use male spaces any longer as she is no longer male. She may not yet be fully female either but for her safety and the safety of our children, female spaces are more appropriate. She poses no risk to anyone but reading MN would make one think that she did

YANBU OP.

Mumsnet is becoming a hotbed for man hating, transphobic bigots that use the term 'feminist' to excuse their behaviours.

If they are happy , that's great. If they start telling me what a woman is and that I'm a ciswoman - not so much.
I'm neither lovely to look at nor feminine, am I not suitable to be a woman now? My partner thinks I look fab as I am. And I think he does too.

I don't get it.

Could someone please give a definition of transphobia?

Just saying "there is such a thing as a man and a woman" shouldn't be fucking hate speech. It's insane.

I think you're being a bit disingenuous here OP.

Yes there are some nice comments but have you seen the downrating they've received? Hardly the 'tolerance and understanding' you describe.

The vast majority of posters on MN who discuss trans issues are concerned about self ID - that's not 'being transphobic'. Sorry if that doesn't fit your narrative but it's the truth.

@ghostyslovesheets there are many historical examples of women dressing up as men to serve on the front line - take Hannah Snell, for example: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Snell

These were women doing so because their life chances were so limited by their sex that they had to pretend to be men to make real choices and do interesting things. But then the TRAs aren't interested in centuries of oppression of women because of both their sex and gender.