To wonder what the world is coming to when the Daily Fail comments section shows more tolerance and understanding than Mumsnet

[worldsupsidedown]

So, I've name changed as I am thoroughly ashamed of having clicked on the side bar of shame, also having been reading an article in the DM at all.

However, there is a story about a very sweet couple - both, wait for it transpeople .

He was a woman and she was a man, they are young and in love, hard working, successful and when you scroll down to the comments are widely accepted by the readers. I mean these readers are generally considered to be the most closed minded and prejudiced people, but EVEN they are OK with it. Because you know what, it is OK.

However, here on Mumsnet no, no. no. He (the transman who was born a woman) would have to come and change alongside your children, get changed in your female only changing rooms, be in your 'safe spaces'. She (the very beautiful, very feminine transwoman who was born a man) would have to go and change with the men, wouldn't be allowed to use the ladies, wouldn't be allowed to access rape crisis if she was assaulted in those places....if you all got your way.

How the fuckity fuck can anyone justify their batshit opinions of that, the world has gone mad if you think that these people are not allowed to live their lives as the gender they identify with because of your petty prejudice and bigotry. Essentially it is none of your business.

So, AIBU to think WTF is going on when the DM and their readership is a more tolerant and accepting place than here?

I’m not waving any placards about how doctors treat people.

But I DO think doctors should be involved in treating people with gender disphoria.

Thus I am anti self-ID.

And once they have a GRC they have the protected status of the female sex, and must be treated as such.

No, their gender will be recognised. They won't be getting smear tests or any of the other nonsense trotted out.

Who thinks a trans woman will be getting a smear test?

Their gender will be recognised. A GRC conveys rights of a protected status upon them. Which could conflict with the rights of biological women.

in a company men could self id as a woman and the company reach their equality targets having put no measures in place.
funds for research into women’s medical issues, or domestic abuse of women by men, or projects to get women into STEM will be eroded.< thanks to nosquirel for that example>
sports women will not be able to compete on an equal playing field
a woman in an abusive relationship who may need a refuge - which at the moment has the right o only employ women could employ someone who self IDs as a woman - therefore the chance to put abused women at further risk, but at the very least no matter what the intention of the person who self IDs as a woman, that refuge would not feel like a safe place for women who are abused
a young teen girl buying her first bra could be assisted by someone who self IDs and who has not undergone surgery and doesn't want to, someone who self IDs as they can use this to abuse their position.

Trans people make up less that 1% of the population, the idea that they will erase 51% is alarmist nonsense.

As for women's DV shelters, both Women's Aid and Refuge (The Experts) have been asked their opinions on self ID and are in favour.

M&S (the bra fitting experts) have already voted with their feet and invite their customs to use the changing room their feel most comfortable in, as do most shops.

The idea that the mother of the girls having her first bra fitting won't be able to say 'no thanks' if she's not happy with the fitter, without some kind of punishment, is alarmist and really strange.

I don't care how people dress. I don't care who marries who. I do care about biology and the effect that has. #BiologyMatters.

This all day long.
If they have always been what they represent themselves to be then why are they trans and why is it a story?

I hope they are happy and healthy in their marriage. Long may it last.

The current law in Ireland is that if you already have GRC it may be dealt with on a case by case basis. If you don't, you can't transition in prison and therefore game the system.

Unlike here, where Karen Jones attempted to rape a woman claiming he/she wanted to be sent back to prison in order to be fast tracked for surgery.

I don't suppose many people would be worried about somebody who already held a GRC, given that only 1% of trans people here have one.

Which is why the current criteria is an efficient gatekeeping system.

There should only be one reason to be considered trans and that is gender dysphoria.

Narrow it down to that group, then start addressing how it affects women.

At the moment, gender dysphoria a long way to not even being considered any part of the criteria, in fact it's 'transphobic' to suggest it.

And under equality law, it's not necessary.

And that is why you have fetishists, misogynists, and any common or garden bully claiming that they are trans.

None of this is, or ever has been, about men with gender dysphoria. They are only coming in for the backlash because other men are hijacking their cause for malevolent gain.

And it's the height of enough to try and shut women down talking about it, or claiming they are bigoted and actually leveraging men with gender dysphoria to do it.

I’m not waving any placards about how doctors treat people.

Well then, your not a placard waving harridan then, are you. 😀

Their gender will be recognised. A GRC conveys rights of a protected status upon them. Which could conflict with the rights of biological women.

I haven't seen a well evidenced argument that this will actually happen. However, supposing it does?

Would it be reasonable for a man to argue against closing the gender pay gap becasue he might lose out?

Oh come on, @Stillscreaming, charities facing a huge cut in their funding if they don't toe the line aren't going to make a stand on this, are they? That would be turkeys voting for Christmas.

As for the supposed lack of threads about the 8th in Ireland, there's this one: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/craicnet/3154131-8th-amendement. MN is a UK website. There are a lot of Irish people here, both still living in Ireland and expats, but it isn't an Irish website. You'd not expect that issue to be front and centre here.

And finally, harridan is a sexist word. You must see that, surely? Nobody calls a strident man a harridan.

Their gender will be recognised.

Woman is not a gender.

& I agree people are bored...very much so, if only MN could return to the days of discussing breastfeeding and penis beakers and having a laugh. I would like ALL discussion of this subject to be removed from MN entirely and have asked for it to be repeatedly.*

Another person wanting to shut down women with concerns. This is why women have to beg via a petition just to be consulted on self ID. Do you realise how ridiculous that is? We have to ask, fight in fact, to even have a discussion.

Sign and share people, sign and share - especially if you disagree with the silencing of the female sex.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

Oh did you miss the memo? Turns out they have consulted women - amongst the 208 groups and individuals they consulted. See upthread.

Now can we have some fun on MN again please?

Here's the MErmaids page on Jake and Hannah

Jake lobbied Stonewall to include the T into LGBT. Hannah is in the military

Now can we have some fun on MN again please
Sure, you go first.

Well then, your not a placard waving harridan then, are you. 😀

Apparently I am though. Because the Borg MN Feminist Mind is transphobic, bigoted and now harridans to boot.

The current law in Ireland is that if you already have GRC it may be dealt with on a case by case basis. If you don't, you can't transition in prison and therefore game the system.

That's a lie.

Unlike here, where Karen Jones attempted to rape a woman claiming he/she wanted to be sent back to prison in order to be fast tracked for surgery.

Prisoners aren't fast tracked for sugary in the uk. She might have thought she would be but it just sounds like an excuse from a rapist to me.

I don't suppose many people would be worried about somebody who already held a GRC, given that only 1% of trans people here have one.

That's a lie, no have no solid evidence for that becasue none exists.

I'm very slow to call anyone transphobic, I don't know what's happening in anyone's head. However when you, Datun continue to pass on stats your made up, when you use news articles that don't say what you claim they say to further oppress an already marginalised minority and you haven't taken the time to see who actually did give evidence to a committee you claim is one sided, I'm at a loss to know why else you'd be doing this.

No @stillscreaming - a harridan is an old hag, a bossy old woman, a shrew, a harpy.

They're not epithets that are applied to men. I don't know any old dyke who uses misogynist slurs like that. Or even any young ones.

And I don't know any who ridicules women and girls for not wanting to be fitted for a bra with a man on the other side of a flimsy curtain.

If you're an old dyke, then I'm Meghan Markle

Why are so many men convicted of violence and/or sexual crimes now identifying as trans? There are in the region of 100 transgender prisons in male prisons in England and Wales at present. About half of them are sex offenders. Some have requested transfer to women's prisons and a couple have even got it! Why is the safety of those women in those prisons, who are very rarely there because of violent crime, let alone sexual offences, not valued more highly? Most of them have experienced abuse and sexual violence and have good reason to be wary of violent men. It makes me sick to my stomach that their views are ignored.

This is just the latest. Very distressing case in Harrow 12 years ago, moved from Broadmoor to medium security a couple of years ago, now seen out on day release dressed as a woman. May be back in the community soon.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/26/killer-allowed-shopping-trips-despite-judge-warning-might-never/

I am not saying that all transgender people are sex offenders. That is obviously nonsense. What I am saying is that this suddenly very fashionable issue is a godsend to the violent, illogical, narcissists in prison looking for any way to pursue their obsession with women's bodies. And self-ID makes it super easy. The British Psychological Society's comments on this appear to have been ignored.

Prisoners, not prisons.

Yep nosquirrels

And some posters would like ALL discussion about this subject to be removed from MN

Not any other subject...just this one

ALL TRANSPHOBIA to be removed i would have no problem with..obviously depending on what the definition of transphobia is

Thank you OP this thread is lovely. I wish the couple lots of happiness for the future and hope the transphobic arseholes of mumsnet all get upset about this!

Every single person on this site is always 'I don't mind if I have a boy or girl, either is fine I'll love them anyway, I don't want to know the sex they're my child and I will love them' but want to throw a fit when Daniel was actually meant to be born as a Danielle. Want to publicly embarrass trans people by knowingly misgender, posting rude and hurtful comments aimed at the trans community. They want to take rights away and go backwards in time. Double standards. Makes me laugh that it's always on the feminism board too. Some should look up the definition of feminism. It's about rights and equality for ALL people. Not just for the women who were (thankfully) born in the right body. Thank fuck for the younger generation who are generally more open and accepting of others.

Because the Borg MN Feminist Mind is transphobic, bigoted and now harridans to boot.

Hang on, I thought the Borg MN Feminist mind was in no way bigoted, never said a transphobic thing EVER, was totally cool with "genuine" transpeople in changing rooms and happy to use preferred pronouns but simply has its doubts about self-ID...

You'd not expect that issue to be front and centre here.

Maybe not front and central but on the German and French message boards I visit, (in an attempt to improve my language skills) the feminist/women's sections are full of it.

I know that there has been one thread her (and another in craicnet) but that can't be compared to an almost full feminist section about trans issues and two or three trans issues threads in AIBU everyday.

@MajestyRoyal, I think you're the one who needs to look up the definition of feminism. It's a word that has been coined from the Latin word femina, which means woman. Feminism is about trying to improve the condition of women. It's not about the human race generally. Try humanism for that.

Stillscreaming ..... some genuinely interesting posts on this issue. Can’t say I’ve seen any contributions from you before ....might just be me unable to look them up of course. Have you posted on any other issues ?

Oh Stillscreaming, I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't kick you in the shins for using a gendered insult.

@MajestyRoyal - that isn't the definition of feminism. You really need to consult a dictionary. The clue is in the word.

@ CapnHaddock

Sparkles, would you like to have a look at my FB profile?