To wonder what the world is coming to when the Daily Fail comments section shows more tolerance and understanding than Mumsnet

[worldsupsidedown]

So, I've name changed as I am thoroughly ashamed of having clicked on the side bar of shame, also having been reading an article in the DM at all.

However, there is a story about a very sweet couple - both, wait for it transpeople .

He was a woman and she was a man, they are young and in love, hard working, successful and when you scroll down to the comments are widely accepted by the readers. I mean these readers are generally considered to be the most closed minded and prejudiced people, but EVEN they are OK with it. Because you know what, it is OK.

However, here on Mumsnet no, no. no. He (the transman who was born a woman) would have to come and change alongside your children, get changed in your female only changing rooms, be in your 'safe spaces'. She (the very beautiful, very feminine transwoman who was born a man) would have to go and change with the men, wouldn't be allowed to use the ladies, wouldn't be allowed to access rape crisis if she was assaulted in those places....if you all got your way.

How the fuckity fuck can anyone justify their batshit opinions of that, the world has gone mad if you think that these people are not allowed to live their lives as the gender they identify with because of your petty prejudice and bigotry. Essentially it is none of your business.

So, AIBU to think WTF is going on when the DM and their readership is a more tolerant and accepting place than here?

It's an irresponsible, unhinged attitude, for a so-called expert.

No, what's unhinged is people with no medical training telling doctors how they should prescribe. The committee also consulted with Shelia Jefferris, I'm not sure just how 'hinged' that is but you can't claim that it's one sided.

*In Ireland, self ID, does not mean you go to the prison of the opposite sex. You're still not allowed.

There are only 149 people in Ireland with a GRC and they don't have anything like the level of transactivism that we have here.*

These statements are both untrue. I don't know if you've made them up yourself or if someone else did it for you but they have no basis in fact.

Having a GRC in the UK doesn't mean that you will be allocated a prison place in the gender of your GRC. Having a vagina that you were born with doesn't mean that you will be allocated a place in a women's prison, prison places are allocated on a case by case basis. Violent or disruptive prisoners are sent the prisons best equipped for dealing with violent and disruptive prisoners, they are all men's prisons.

Anyone who takes the time to read the list will also see that Shelia Jefferris, Radical Feminist Legal Support Network, Scottish Women Against Pornography and many other groups were also consulted.

None of these was asked to give verbal evidence. As you can see from the report. All they were allowed to do is submit something in writing.

Unlike Jay Stewart who was instrumental behind the pink brain/blue brain exhibition at the science museum. Telling children that they could find out what kind of brain they had, based on the choices they made. Which was subsequently taken down.

Or Caroline Dinedage who, in writing, maintained that the very existence of AGP was 'controversial', despite being given overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I don't see Sheila Jefferies there? Is she there under a different name or group?

And while I'm here OP I'd also ask you to look at this thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3205176-dv-gone-wrong

This concerns the tweets and articles of a leading Trans Rights Activist who is regularly on national TV/Radio to argue in favour of self id.

Does this person represent all trans people? Of course not - they are part of a very vocal number of activists though.

They tell us all how self id is no big deal and women have no need to be concerned as per a recent interview on Good Morning Britain.

Read the thread, do your own research into their history and authored articles.

Do you really think this person cares about women's rights?

Or maybe listen to @PeanutButterSquash and Curry on MN or the other trans women who speak out on social media and in the press. Debbie Hayton, Miranda Yardley, Hope Pink for example.....

The medical profession is not infallible (ask any parent who has been through asd diagnosis). There are practitioners who have gone on the record about the massive pressure they are under to accept trans ideology. In this climate, mistakes will be made. That is a certainty.

I've no doubt that mistakes will be made, mistakes are always made in the medical profession. Well qualified, well intentioned people still make mistakes.

I don't think that the situation will be made easier by placard waving harridans, with no medical training, sticking their oar in.

clunj

I am concerned about self ID

Unfortunately for every poster who puts up a reason why self ID is a bad idea there is someone yelling transphobe and inferring people are liars for even wanting to discuss it and listen to the various arguments

It is a shame as there may obviously be no problems whatsoever but i am only getting one side of the story and pro self ID people dont seem to want to engage

I would be very inerested to hear more from you about how it works in Canada...i know a very little about some of the Irish exemptions

You know what OP does she have a penis? If she doesn't she's very welcome to come and get changed along side me and my daughters. If she does then she's still a male and can get changed with the other penis owners.

No vagina, no entry!

How the fuckity fuck can anyone justify their batshit opinions of that, the world has gone mad if you think that these people are not allowed to live their lives as the gender they identify with because of your petty prejudice and bigotry. Essentially it is none of your business.

Say this again to a rape survivor!

Do you really think this person cares about women's rights?

I don't think they do care about women's rights, to be honest. I don't think that many of the more fanatical on either side of this argument give a fig about women's rights.

One of the biggest women's right issues of this century is going on in Ireland right now and I don't see it mentioned here. I don't see those so vocally opposed to the rights of trans women, putting the issue aside to give their sisters over the water a bit of support or even headspace.

Stillscreaming would you mind posting the link? I would very much like to make my own mind up on these issues but it’s so hard when no one will give information that would help.

Datum posted the link, if you scroll to the bottom you'll see the list of those who gave written evidence.

I'm gender critical but what exactly is the story here?

Two people are romantically and sexually attracted to each other.

Hardly a news story.

And anyway, many of us who an issue with thr trans agenda (as pushed by radical TRA and men who clearly want to shut women up) have zero issue with actual trand people.

I have no issue with trans people. Regardless of my views on gender they deserve to be protected from (actual) transphobia and I couldn't care less otherwise. I wouldn't misgender or anything like that because that is mean.

HOWEVER (and it is a big however), I have a huge issue with transwomen trying to tell me what it is to be a woman. I have an issue witj trans women who think that 'lady dick' is a thing. I do not want to be told that having gender critical views is transphobic. I do not like the fact that the definition of being a woman is being rewritten and nobody should question it becaude... trans. I have an issue with biological men competing in women's sports. I have an issue with self ID because it opens up the potential for predatory men yo access female spaces.
and i bloody hate the fact that any question on the debate is shut down because 'we are women and you cis women should sit down, shut up and be good little girls whilst we tell you what it is to be a woman. You horrible transphobe.'

The whole debate is ridiculous when people have to resort to phrases like 'men in dresses' because the language of sex and gender has become so newspeak that it's the only way to be clear.

And none of those issues means hating or disliking transpeople. TRA fanatics are a bloody liability to all women and transwomen.

Saying that Hannah wasn't born a woman or that Jake wasn't born a man isn't transphobic. It's a fact.

I've never heard of anyone giving birth to a man or a woman. We're born babies, boys and girls, male and female, even. For someone who claims to be committed to the idea that words mean something, you're playing very fast and loose there.

@stillscreaming
people with no medical training telling doctors how they should prescribe

Well, this is my impression of Mermaids - that they are a pressure group who encourage pubertal children towards medical solutions and campaign to change the medical profession’s treatment of “watch and wait” towards greater intervention.

On the subject of #repealthe8th I am totally in support and I think you’ll find there was a thread just the other day about women who had “travelled”.

I’d link it for you, but I can’t be arsed because you can’t be arsed to link the info you have.

placard waving harridans
Showed your hand a littke bit too much there, I think.

Datum posted the link, if you scroll to the bottom you'll see the list of those who gave written evidence.
Xpost. I’ll go look.

Here’s the thread I mentioned
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3199635-to-ask-if-theres-anyone-else-here-who-travelled-from-Ireland

Updated figures show that 230 gender recognition certificates have been issued in Ireland. A negligible amount, in anyone's assessment.

www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/230-gender-recognition-certificates-issued-since-2015-450656.html

I have an issue with self ID because it opens up the potential for predatory men yo access female spaces.

I'm sorry but that's not true. The proposed changes to the gender recognition act, are that people can obtain a gender recognition certificate without medical 'proof'. No one needs a GRC to access women's space, you've never been asked for a passport or a birth cert to enter a changing room or a loo.

As someone who's worked at a women's DV shelter, booking in the victims of domestic violence, I can promise you, I've never asked for ID of any kind.

Really? Fast and loose? Okay. Hannah was a boy baby, Jake was a girl baby. They grew up to be boys and girls. And men and women.

Better?

Oh - and harridans? Showing your dick there, love.

Updated figures show that 230 gender recognition certificates have been issued in Ireland. A negligible amount, in anyone's assessment.

A. That's not the figure you first quoted.
B. That the number of GRCs that have been issued since 2015, as anyone clicking through to the article can see.

Stop making stuff up to frightened women, Datum.

@Stillscreaming

Sigh - I'm not arguing with medical practitioners.

I'm arguing against Mermaids.

An organisation that has been proven to present incorrect "information" repeatedly.

That denies that ROGD (rapid onset gender dysphoria) as a result of online social contamination is real.

That Lupron is not harmful.

That presented incorrect statistics on suicide rates that are repeated again and again (recently by Paris Lees in Question Time).

Information that then has the propensity to result in parents making decisions (to what they believe is in their child's best interests) that they may not have done.

placard waving harridans

You're rather revealing your true colours there screaming.

Showed your hand a littke bit too much there, I think.

Showing your dick there, love

Will the pair of you strop trying to shut down women who disagree with you. It's tedious. You can't argue your position so you throw this out.

The proposed changes to the gender recognition act, are that people can obtain a gender recognition certificate without medical 'proof'.

And once they have a GRC they have the protected status of the female sex, and must be treated as such.

They will obtain this without medical proof of commitment to transition.

Why is that a good idea?

You're rather revealing your true colours there screaming.

Anyone waving a placard demanding a say in how doctors treat their patients is a harridan.

And once they have a GRC they have the protected status of the female sex, and must be treated as such.

No, their gender will be recognised. They won't be getting smear tests or any of the other nonsense trotted out.

its not about trans people - its about womens rights. Trans people i am told do not want a third way - they either want to be classed as male or female.

women have protection under law - we do not get the same opportunties and access that men do. there is a proposal to change the definition of a woman to include those who self identify as a woman. this leaves the door open for many misuses and protections of women

for instance someone could id as a woman having not undergone any surgery, counselling or support or the couple of years it takes to get a certificte - they just elect to be a woman. if i go to the doctor and for many many many reasons ask that i be seen by a woman. that would include someone who self id as a woman.

in a company men could self id as a woman and the company reach their equality targets having put no measures in place.
funds for research into women’s medical issues, or domestic abuse of women by men, or projects to get women into STEM will be eroded.< thanks to nosquirel for that example>
sports women will not be able to compete on an equal playing field
a woman in an abusive relationship who may need a refuge - which at the moment has the right o only employ women could employ someone who self IDs as a woman - therefore the chance to put abused women at further risk, but at the very least no matter what the intention of the person who self IDs as a woman, that refuge would not feel like a safe place for women who are abused
a young teen girl buying her first bra could be assisted by someone who self IDs and who has not undergone surgery and doesn't want to, someone who self IDs as they can use this to abuse their position

A Muslim woman who can only participate in certain women only activities, will not be able to participate on religous grounds
an elderly woman who would rather have a woman wash her after an episode of incontinence...

there was aslo a thread about the guides trans policy recently. Parents would not be told if their daughter was on a camping trip with a teenager who self ID as a woman.

'm arguing against Mermaids.

Mermaids are a support organisation, they don't prescribe drugs.