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8th amendement

(116 Posts)
playdead Tue 30-Jan-18 10:20:06

It feels like we are dragging ourselves into the 21st century. If there is a yes vote at least cases like the X case will (hopefully) not happen again.

I feel a relieved that, at last, the wishes of the women involved will be taken into account.

MulhuddartDrive Tue 30-Jan-18 20:15:35

Just gotta hope that everyone who was keen enough to come home to support same sex marriage will do the same for Irish women.

playdead Wed 31-Jan-18 13:52:01

I'm hoping that too Mulhuddart

Rainatnight Wed 31-Jan-18 13:54:05

God, I really hope this passes. I live in England now but feel so strongly that the 8th is the last vestige of Irish Church-led state control of women's bodies.

It's a much tougher sell than the gay marriage referendum.

StripySocksAndDocs Thu 01-Feb-18 16:03:50

The worm does seem to be turning doesnt it.

I'd like it if there was the whole "home to vote" situation again. I've a feeling there won't be.

It's heartening to see that slowly the message is getting through, that this is not about for or against abortion. But about whether a woman's right over her body is under her or someone else's control.

peanut2017 Thu 01-Feb-18 20:21:32

It's going to get nasty. Can already see it happening in some debates. Will be such a monumental change for women. Finally

OhCalamity Fri 02-Feb-18 17:23:54

I was in 5th year when the X case had the country in a furore and I'm not far off menopause.

I suspect that there will be a lot of nastiness. It's clear from a lot of debates that for many pro-life activists it's really about punishing a woman and about misogyny. I think that a large swathe of Ireland still feel that a woman can't be trusted to make her own decisions about her body, or feel she should have no right to make that decision unless a team of men benignly bestow them.

I hope there is a home-to-vote campaign. But then the other side will have their act together on that one too this time around.

Amelia1764 Sat 03-Feb-18 19:52:04

I'm pro choice but my father (70) will vote to keep the eighth amendment- he says all his friends will vote similarly. Chatting to my sister in law (35) earlier today and she says she doesn't agree with abortion at all and will vote to keep it too. I don't know if this will pass at all..

OhCalamity Sat 03-Feb-18 21:22:16

Amelia, my DM will vote to keep. She is militantly pro life. Another family member had a FFA pregnancy and chose to continue until birth but they feel that that was their personal choice alone to do so. I suspect they might vote repeal.

I tried to explain to DM that it's so much more than just the unborn. My maternity care was directly impacted by the 8th but she's just deaf to anything that's not an Iona bollocks soundbite.She strongly believes if a mother dies having a baby that it's the ultimate gift that they can give to that baby. hmm There's absolutely no point in talking to her whatsoever.

StripySocksAndDocs Sat 03-Feb-18 21:47:46

I think a large number of the older voters will vote to keep the 8th. Obviously there will be 70 year olds who vote repeal (but none I know directly).

To be very simplist they are a generation who grew up in a time where society punished women for being pregnant (and not married.) It's so deeply ingrained.

It'll take a similar approach that same-sex marriage campaign did on ensuring those that will vote to repeal come one.

I think whilst it seems opinion is changing it might not be quick enough.

honeyrider Sun 04-Feb-18 01:43:43

I've a bad feeling about the 8th not being repealed. There are a lot of anti choice voters and they're not just the older generations either. There is so much misinformation being bandied about.

I don't normally agree with much of what Fr. Brian Darcy says but I agree with him when he says that a lot of the pro life brigade are not pro life they're only pro feotus. They don't give a shit about the living.

StripySocksAndDocs Sun 04-Feb-18 07:26:49

I sorry i dont just mean that it's just the older generation who are anti-choice. But a large percentage of the generation would be - and they (as in most countires) are the larger group of voters.

What needs to happen is two things. The pro-choice voters need to vote, and there needs to be the realisation that you can be 'against' abortion but that opinion does not mean you should have control over another person's body.

I do think the referendum is probably occurring too soon. Opinion seems to be changing but not quick enough.

MulhuddartDrive Sun 04-Feb-18 07:58:30

I'm worried about it too. Although I was heartened to see a grandparent at my DC's very lefty liberal school wearing a repeal pin, the young and "silent" retain voters are out there. I really don't think that young people will come home in their droves to vote like they did for same sex marriage - I think this is seen as a "women's issue" rather than a social one, and it isn't the warm cuddly, we-all-know-someone-who-will-be-made-happy-by-the-change, referendum that the last was. And a poster of Brian and Declan down the road holding hands (because, let's face it, the same sex marriage referendum said very little about lesbian women) and looking at each other lovingly is a far cry from them imagery that has and will be used.

ForgivenessIsDivine Sun 04-Feb-18 10:27:59

MulhuddartDrive has hit the nail on the head. Same sex marriage was a issue for men. This is an issue that only relates to women.

playdead Sun 04-Feb-18 13:12:23

I am becoming increasingly worried about this too. I'm shocked by the amount of people I know who will be voting to keep the 8th.

DSis and DBro are a bit older than me and they will both be voting to keep it. DM was pregnant before I was born and unfortunately the baby died 6 months into the pregnancy. She had to carry the baby to term and give birth. It nearly destroyed her. She had a breakdown and had depression on and off for the rest of her life. They remember this. I can't believe they will be voting to keep the 8th.

Honeyrider - "I don't normally agree with much of what Fr. Brian Darcy says but I agree with him when he says that a lot of the pro life brigade are not pro life they're only pro feotus. They don't give a shit about the living"
It's depressing but I think you and Brian Darcy could be right.

Rainatnight Sun 04-Feb-18 14:23:31

That is a very depressing yet insightful analysis, Mulhuddart.

I don't think this is a done deal at all. Iim so conscious of being in a bubble with people like me on social media. But I'd say there are a lot of 'shy retainers' out there.

ForgivenessIsDivine Sun 04-Feb-18 14:55:45

The ingrained misogyny in Irish society never ceases to amaze me.
During the height of the historical sex abuse reporting, there was an overwhelming focus on the abuse of boys whereas all statistics point to women being the overwhelming sufferers from sexual abuse. Abuse of boys is somehow seen as unnatural, whereas abuse of girls and women is accepted, not talked about and women bear the shame, guilt and responsibility.

There was even one article which calculated the financial impact of childhood abuse on men and said that it was less impactful on women who would more than likely have taken time out of earning to have children. The fact that this was published in a national newspaper was completely beyond me.

I know this is not the topic of discussion but it is so ingrained that men are more important that I fear this amendment will stand.

OhCalamity Sun 04-Feb-18 16:05:32

Mulhuddart, I think you've got to the nub of the issue. Divorce got through because it affected men's lives. Marriage equality was the same.

A woman choosing termination is something that men have no say, control or rights over and they hate that. At least when Irish women (the lucky ones who had the legal freedom, money, passport and childcare to travel) had to jump through a few man made hoops it helped soothe the ego a bit for them.

The ones I hate the most are the men who very vocally pro-life, and cite that we will all be getting abortions as often as manicures, but they'd deign to allow it in cases of rape or FFA. Scratch the surface and they are ALL about comeuppance of women. They give not a flying fuck for a foetus, or a baby. It's about punishing a woman.

SilentlyScreamingAgain Sun 04-Feb-18 16:48:45

It's going to be a very close run thing and, of course, we have more than our share of misogyny here but I'm really heartened by the commitment, enthusiasm and good humour of the Repeal movement.

I wouldn't trust out politicians to do much but even the most cynical would have to agree that they are uniquely gifted at keeping their eyes on the main chance and they all seem to be putting their, measured, support behind the Repeal campaign. They aren't expecting to lose votes over it.

While the SSM referendum was different, I think that the social conservatives used up so much of their goodwill espousing easy to disprove lies, social conservatives have been left looking like the control freaks they are.

playdead Sun 04-Feb-18 21:24:03

The ingrained misogyny is really shocking* Forgiveness.*

The vitriol against "unmarried mothers" is still alive and kicking in Ireland. How do these people think they got pregnant in the first case? Immaculate conception?

I'm hoping there are enough compassionate people out there to vote repeal.

honeyrider Sun 04-Feb-18 22:43:35

The ingrained misogyny is really shocking

It's still as prevalent as ever, you only have to see what's currently going on in the big court case in Northern Ireland and who's going to give character references for two of the accused and although it's in Northern Ireland the same thing happens in Ireland, you only have to look at the scum up to 50 of them mostly middle aged men who paraded up the court to shake hands and support a convicted sex offender.

playdead Mon 05-Feb-18 07:57:11

I had never heard of that case in Kerry honey. How is that possible?

It's just shocking that there was obviously enough evidence to convict him but he had that showing of support.

Those 50 men would most likely be the ones shaking their head if that woman was pregnant and went on to have a baby or calling her a murderer if she had an abortion.

OhCalamity Mon 05-Feb-18 10:32:38

It was a disgusting stunt by those men. They should have all been named and shamed so we know who to avoid. For sure those same fuckers will vote to keep the 8th so women who have sex continue to be punished.

Basically for a certain subset of Irish men, women who put out for them are sluts, and women who don't are uptight frigid bitches. Women who abort are slutty baby-killers, ones who don't are gold-digging whores out to steal all their money / get free houses off their hard-earned taxes hmm

I really hope this referendum brings out all the women of voting age in their droves to repeal.

honeyrider Mon 05-Feb-18 11:32:03

Only recently David Walsh and Donal Og Cusack gave character references for convicted child abuser Tom Humphries.

HolyShmoly Tue 06-Feb-18 20:48:43

I don't believe it will be repealed. I wish it would be, but I don't have my hopes up.

I don't live at home anymore but I don't think the pro-choice movement is talking to the central crowd enough or maybe just not in the right language, but this could be because I have a distinct leftist slant in my social media bubble. People like my family don't see abortion as a female issue really, they see it as killing a baby.
Discussion such as a pp mentioned about the difference in basic care that the 8th results in, the trauma of carrying a baby with a ffa, the story of a girl who was denied the morning after pill and resulted in a pregnancy, are what's more likely to change minds, imo. Education around what is actually involved in an abortion, too. And yes, that you don't have to have any tests, and certainly no one is going to put any pressure on you to have an abortion.
Afaik, trisomy testing isn't even widely available in Ireland at the moment.

I'm currently pregnant, in England. I did wonder if this experience would change my mind about being pro-choice. It's actually made my opinion even stronger. Before considering pregnancy I never thought I'd have an abortion but agreed that for some women it is the best or only option for them. After learning more about ffa, etc, I realised that there could be occasions where it would be the best option for me, and thank god I live somewhere that it would be an option. Although I won't be travelling home to vote as I think it's one that the Irish people have to make for themselves without outside influence.
I haven't voted in Ireland since moving away, I don't think I've ever voted in Ireland actually!

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