About other people’s children

[Curiousaboutchoices]

I sometimes feel like I am the only ‘strict’ parent around. We are surrounded by lovely people but many are what I would describe as permissive parents. This goes from the very extreme ‘Jane is just experimenting with gravity ’ when 3 year old Jane was deliberately throwing breakable items down a set of stairs, to a milder version whereby people consistently let their kids speak rudely, interrupt, scream and shout if they are ignored or don’t get their own way. Behaviour such as taking toys off another child, ignoring instructions/requests, being rude are often laughed at. Lots don’t restrict tv, screens or gaming, let their kids eat loads of sweets and chocolate in between meals, let their kids get up and down from the table, go to bed when they like, or put their kids to bed and then do nothing when they get back up again. This all makes play dates and sleepovers incredibly hard when all this is acceptable behaviour at home but not in my house.

No one would think it acceptable for an adult to behave like this. If I was unable to go out for dinner without getting up and wandering around people would think I was a little odd. I’m not talking toddlers, I’m talking KS1 and 2. And it’s a lot of the visitors to my house, not a small minority.

I can hear people saying already ‘not your kids, not your business’, which is right, but what these parents create is kids who are incredibly hard work outside the home. When kids stay over or come to play they are unable to cope with an adult not responding to their whims immediately, find it odd that I tell them not to help themselves my food cupboards or go into my bedroom, don’t like being told they have to sit still at a table to eat and can’t get up and down, etc.

Is this a nationwide modern phenomenon now, that children can do what they like or am I just living in a weird bubble?

I think you are right OP and that things have changed to a generally more permissive parenting style.
It is very difficult. We've had children over who did things which I don't allow, and I have told them that. If they don't listen they get told again and then - well, we don't have them over again for a while. Children do change, and sometimes are just going through a phase and figuring out what they can do where - as someone said up thread, kids are very adaptable to different situations.
I do find it incredible though when a parent is present and I say to their child "please don't jump on the couch", child continues doing it and parent does nothing at all. It used to fluster me because I'd expect the parent to take over and tell their child not to do something which I've just indicated is not allowed at my house.
I have learnt though and now just repeat not to do it again and say that they won't be able to come back and play if they don't understand the rules. Usually works.
My SIL is permissive to an extreme I've never come across before and it is making her dd very difficult; she totally expects to get her own way on everything. She's still only 5, so it's not a huge problem yet, but I suspect it will be if things don't change (they won't).

Frantically

I’ve reread your post to check. It wasn’t just one extreme example, all the way through the post you’ve used words like submission, control, rebellion and fear in relation to discipline.

Now that might not be what you meant but that was certainly my clear impression from your post.

Oh yes, DD 10's best friend was into every fucking thing, she took chocolate out of the fridge, wet DS2's hairbrush and used it to take his stickers off his bedroom wall, wanted to light incense... DH doesn't want her here again, I've pointed out that that wouldn't be fair to DD, but she's been told by me and DD that she comes on condition that she leaves our things alone. I expect to have to watch a yr1 child, not a yr5 child.

I want people to like my children and think that they are well brought up with good manners. Good manners and charm open doors in life,

I don’t really see this round us most parents are anxious to make sure their child is not seen as a little shit tbh. They might be more lax in their own homes but round here there’s very much a strict in public approach from most parents

How old would you expect a child to be to

• say please and thank you consistently?

• not interrupt adults when they're speaking?

• sit at the table until everyone has finished?

• use cutlery properly?

• understand to use a polite tone of voice to make a request?

@Thistlebelle yes, as examples of the extreme way of parting via control. Go find something else to do.

I've seen my fair share of parents of children who are challenging ofr whatever reason and it's only the parents who don't attempt to address the behaviour in any way that I find irritating.

If a child is running around a restaurant, it needs to be addressed for reasons of safety and courtesy to other diners. There are various ways to do this. I've dealt with it by stepping outside for a quiet conversation with the child, by providing a screen, by engaging the child in conversation, by a flat out order that she has to stay in her seat because that's what we do in restaurants and, on one occasion because she has autism and was overwhelmed, leaving part way through the meal.

I would never judge a parent for the behaviour of their child because I don't know the root cause. I would judge a parent for making no attempt to address behaviour that is causing a problem to others.

Children need to learn that rules and expectations change depending on where you are and who you are with. They generally don't find that a difficult concept to grasp.

Nobody expects children to know the rules and expections of them automatically. We as a society should, however, expect parents to make an effort to start teaching their children about those rules and expectations in an age appropriate way from early on.

Frantically, I actually think the approach that ‘different things work for different kids’ can be a bit dangerous and allow spirited kids to get away with murder. My own kids are very different, and one might require more explanation than another, and another might challenge and debate things more but ultimately they both have to follow the same rules. My spirited child finds it much more difficult to conform, and took longer to learn not to interrupt, to sit at the table, not get back up after bedtime etc, but changing the rules would have been mad just because they didn’t get it first time. In fact, even more important that my spirited child learn the conform to certain basic rules before they go to school and create havoc.

I know it’s hard work, I know children are all different, but just because certain children resist the basic rules does not mean those rules are wrong. Just because a child gets up continually after being put to bed doesn’t mean he’s not tired and the bedtime is wrong. Just because a ten year old can’t sit still at the table for ten minutes doesn’t mean the rule about table manners is wrong (they will do SATs soon ffs and have to sit an awful lot longer). Thinking that way is where the problems begin.

Goldmantra - i couldn’t agree more.

Frantically I’m quite comfortable here thanks.

Perfectly by that age my D.C. are expected to be responsible for their friend’s behaviour in our home. If they can’t manage their friend’s behaviour they know to duck out and quietly get one of us. If they don’t then they have to accept responsibility for any damage or mess. It’s worked well as an operating principle.

Wiggypig - I started on that process from the minute they were born and, whilst I accept that it is always a work in progress, I would say that by 3 they had these things nailed about 95 one cent of the time. It was an awful lot of hard fucking work and remains so to date, but gets easier as they get older and start to self correct before you even have to say a word.

Except the cutlery, that requires a reminder every fucking meal.

I tend to be more understanding if somebody else’s child isn’t doing something. Just the example of a meal at a table, I’m aware that a lot of children live in homes much smaller than they need and may not even have room for a table. Plus so many parents work shifts now sitting down as a family for a meal is often an infrequent event. Plus I’m much more likely to assume that a child is just feeling tired, run down, stressed or in a bad mood on that particular day rather than assuming that they have poor parents. I mean, my kids are generally quite well behaved. But I’d be lying if I pretended they didn’t get tired and cranky towards the end of term and no amount of tough parenting could counter that. It would just make them sullen and frustrated.

The dog - I totally agree that you can be strict with an under 1. My youngest started to throw food when she weaned at 6 months. Every time she threw something meal time was over and I got her down from the table. Oddly enough she stopped throwing food pretty quickly. At six months. I see 5 year olds getting away with it and it makes my blood bloody boil.

but what these parents create is kids who are incredibly hard work outside the home

Not necessarily. I'm neither overly strict or overly lax, somewhere in the middle probably. We're having a few behaviour issues with our youngest (just turned 11) at the moment but however badly she behaves at home, she is always an angel out and about and at school.

Children behave differently in their own home than in other people's.

@Wiggypig

I expect all those of my eldest two. They are 4 and almost 2

Peanutbuttercups There is a world of difference between letting a baby sleep when it wants, or doing BLW, and not instilling good manners!

I was a comparatively relaxed earth-mother-ish type in the eyes of my friends, when my DC were babies. But that doesn’t mean that they’re not being taught sharing/table manners/good sleeping habits/etc as they get older. You can’t equate the two approaches.

YANU....... Some terrible parents out there.

WiggyPig I don’t know about other children but my 4 year old does all the things listed (very few reminders needed) and my 2.8 year old does them with slightly more frequent reminders, although cutting with a knife is still a work in progress.

And my 2.8 year old self corrects if she doesn’t ask for something politely the first time, as I don’t answer until she does!

@WiggyPig I expect my children to do that most of the time from nursery age (with adaptations for ability eg it takes a while to learn to use a knife effectively on tougher food) and frequent reminders about not interrupting. For play date children, I would expect all that by Y1, and would prompt for ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ before providing a drink or a snack, and for them to ask whether they can leave the table before getting down. I don’t mind the odd leaving tantrum (happens to the nicest kids) but I do mind ineffectual ‘don’t do thatting’ in response.

I hear you OP, my little darling decided to behave like an entitled little shit in a shop yesterday, so I called him on it in a stern, slightly raised voice.

The looks I got from other shoppers you'd have honestly thought I'd just given him a beating right there in public!

There seems to be a real reluctance to discipline children these days.

Behaviours that are stopped in a one year old can come back or appear for the first time in an older child and can be much more difficult to stop.

Curious Yes, be honest about not having a child back. "We won't be inviting Johnny back because he wouldn't obey our house rules". And I usually said it right after said child left, when the memory of Johnny's behaviour was fresh in my child's mind. You can cite an example if you wish but I usually my child knew exactly what I meant.

And if your child tells Johnny "Mum says you can't come round anymore because you don't listen to her" then so much the better! Johnny needs to learn that very valuable life lesson.

Lollipop your one year old uses cutlery properly?

My 3.5yo doesn't do any of those consistently (about a 75% hit rate for please and thank you). She has just scored very high on a preliminary ASD screening, so she might find it harder to acquire these skills, but there's such a huge range of social expectations and abilities among her peers that I'm not sure where I should be aiming at this age regardless of any extra support she might need.