About other people’s children

[Curiousaboutchoices]

I sometimes feel like I am the only ‘strict’ parent around. We are surrounded by lovely people but many are what I would describe as permissive parents. This goes from the very extreme ‘Jane is just experimenting with gravity ’ when 3 year old Jane was deliberately throwing breakable items down a set of stairs, to a milder version whereby people consistently let their kids speak rudely, interrupt, scream and shout if they are ignored or don’t get their own way. Behaviour such as taking toys off another child, ignoring instructions/requests, being rude are often laughed at. Lots don’t restrict tv, screens or gaming, let their kids eat loads of sweets and chocolate in between meals, let their kids get up and down from the table, go to bed when they like, or put their kids to bed and then do nothing when they get back up again. This all makes play dates and sleepovers incredibly hard when all this is acceptable behaviour at home but not in my house.

No one would think it acceptable for an adult to behave like this. If I was unable to go out for dinner without getting up and wandering around people would think I was a little odd. I’m not talking toddlers, I’m talking KS1 and 2. And it’s a lot of the visitors to my house, not a small minority.

I can hear people saying already ‘not your kids, not your business’, which is right, but what these parents create is kids who are incredibly hard work outside the home. When kids stay over or come to play they are unable to cope with an adult not responding to their whims immediately, find it odd that I tell them not to help themselves my food cupboards or go into my bedroom, don’t like being told they have to sit still at a table to eat and can’t get up and down, etc.

Is this a nationwide modern phenomenon now, that children can do what they like or am I just living in a weird bubble?

It’s unusual to have no children with sn in a class because about 1 in 20 children have SN and most classes are larger than that so it’s unlikely there will be 100% children with no SN

Even supported its highly unlikely a child with SN would need no accommodations. Inclusion is not a passive thing, it requires everyone to reach out over the gap

You know 100% for a fact that they don't have a diagnosis. You can't know that none of them would get one

What part of "I know for a fact there are no SN in the class" are you both struggling to understand? I'm not guessing, I'm not assuming there are none because I've heard nothing about it...I know for a fact ok. Please stop telling me you know better than me. It's a class of 22, there are no children with SN in the class.

zzzzz

How is it nonsense? Not every class in school has SN children, not here anyway. There are SN units in some schools, there are SN schools locally...my DDs class does NOT have any children with SN.. this is a fact. My best friend is the teacher, she told me. Let me guess, she's lying too? You know better?

3,2,1... waiting for the outrage for a teacher telling me this...people talk in RL you know.

What part of "I know for a fact there are no SN in the class" are you both struggling to understand?

Please coild you explain more clearly what you mean? Do you mean that every difficult child in this class has been professionally assessed, by a qualified person such as an educational or clinical psychologist, and not one of them was found to have special needs?

You see in my experience there is a high (and variable) bar to access to time from these professionals. Often only the most seriously disruptive or disabled get assessed. There are huge numbers of children with ASCs, ADD, dyslexia etc flying under the radar.

Or do you mean something else?

Do you mean that every difficult child in this class has been professionally assessed, by a qualified person such as an educational or clinical psychologist, and not one of them was found to have special needs?

I'm sorry but I don't know how else I can say that there simply are no children with any SNs in my DDs class. There are no children going through any assessments for any diagnoses at this moment. This is a class of 22, ages 7-8. The teacher is my friend, we had a discussion about special needs children in mainstream school(my step-son is autistic and attends an autistic unit attached to a mainstream school) and this is how it came up and how I know. Out area has a few SNs schools and 3 or 4 schools with autistic units onto the mainstream school, maybe this is why???

Or maybe you don’t understand what SN means

Did you miss the it I said my step-son(who lives with me 50/50) is autistic

And if your friend is discussing children’s private medical histories with her friends, personally I think she is behaving appallingly and should be given a formal warning and/or sacked

Why are you making things up? What medical histories did my friend discuss? THERE IS NO MEDICAL HISTORIES TO DISCUSS, she discussed the LACK of SNs in her class.

Why are you so bothered that there are no SNs children in my daughters class? Are you stressed out or something? She should be sacked, oh god you're one of those people arent't you?

Lemonnaise

I had several ill-informed teachers tell me that my DD2 didn't have any additional needs. She is now attending an specialist independent residential school because her needs have now been assessed and identified by skilled clinicians and those needs cannot be met in a school within our county.

I didn't know that my DD1 had special needs until she was 12 and her teachers certainly didn't recognise them.

What you mean is that the teacher is not aware of any additional needs amongst the children in your child's class. She will not have received the training that enables her to make a judgement as to whether any particular child has autism for example.

Knowing one child who has autism doesn't make you an expert in the terminology around SEN.

Some teachers would say that they have no children with special needs in their class because they have no children on the SEN register. Lots of children are missed off the SEN register in school but still have additional needs.

Would your teacher friend feel obliged to update you in her assertion should one of the class be accepted for assessment for a neurodevelopmental disorder?

It really isn't possible for a teacher to reasonably make these sweeping judgements.

What you mean is that the teacher is not aware of any additional needs amongst the children in your child's class

None of the parents in this years class have said to her they are concerned that their children have special needs. No parents have told her that thier children are being assessed for any type of SN.

Of course I don't think because my step-son is autistic that that's the only kind of SN...I was responding to the person who said I didn't understand what SN means...of course I do.
It's not a 'sweeping' judgement on my friends part, it's FACT. Most children where we live with SN go to SN schools but hey you random strangers who insist that I'm mistaken seem to know better. There's a thread about Mumsnet V Real Life on here just now...this is one of those threads. Picking apart my posts and insisting that there absolutely MUST be children with SN in my childs class when I know there's not. There are children without SN you know...and...shock horror 22 kids without SN in the same class, get a bloody life.

Lemonnaise They are 7 and 8, neither you or the teacher know for a fact that there is no one in that class that has any SN at all. There may well be none with any diagnosed SN, possibly even none who are disruptive but it is quite common for things like dyslexia, processing disorders and ADD to not get noticed til much later.

Please be patient Lemmonaise, this a long and confusing thread. My original comment was directed at Goldiloz and her secondary class who need an unusual amount of attention and achieve poorly and yet (as far as she knows) none of them have SEN.

You are right that your teacher friend is in a different situation. In Britain it is possible (though statistically unusual) to have no children at all with SEN in a mainstream state primary class. However, children with SEN are identified throughout primary school, not just in preschool or reception, though as I said access to assessments is often limited to the most severe and to those whose parents make a fuss. But it isn't supposed to be left to the parents to identify SEN and tell the teacher. If your friend's class of 8 year olds are all doing well then that is fine (if unusual). If, on the other hand, some of her class are struggling with behaviour or attention or achievement then it is part of her job to flag up the need for assessments so that secondary teachers like Goldiloz don't have to deal with classes of children some of whom probably should have been assessed but weren't. By secondary school it's late in the day to do much about it.

Lemonnaise They are 7 and 8, neither you or the teacher know for a fact that there is no one in that class that has any SN at all

And you don't know for a fact that they DO have SN or will have SN. I live in Ireland, not Britain. I'll say it one more time and them I'm out of this thread. Most children who I know with SN, go to SN schools or mainstream school with SN units attached this quite obviously reduces the number of children with SN in mainstream classes. I don't know how it works in other counties in this country but that's the way it is here in my county OK? I have no idea why you are all hounding me and insisting that I'm wrong.

VERY few of our children go to special schools and we are the richer for it

Ha I don't think so. My friend, who I refer to above worked in London for several years as a teacher and she said it was horrendous. Pupils with behavioural problems causing havoc, making it near impossible to teach sometimes, no thanks. No doubt I'll be vilified now but as someone up above said to me...just saying.

VERY few of our children go to special schools and we are the richer for it

And if it's so bloody great and 'inclusive' then why are there so many threads on here about parents trying and failing to get help for their SN kids in mainstream schools and getting nowhere, having to fight tooth and nail for every bit of help, nearly at the end of their tether? One look at the SN boards tells you how hard it is for them.

why are there so many threads on here about parents trying and failing to get help

Simply, it's underfunded.

Children aren't adults...
But op's point is that the people supervising (or not, as the case may be) the children supposedly are. And they're the ones assuming the behaviour is perfectly fine.

Inclusion absolutely can, and does, work for some children. DS1 (12) has ASD and has been in mainstream since Reception. I'd say that with the exception of Year 5 his mainstream education has worked spectacularly well. His level of need is admittedly low, and his behaviour regulation and management skills mean he's not a risk in terms of playing up at school - quite the opposite.

I know several children in every class at my school who have SEN (I teach Reception). I'd be very surprised at an entire class with no SEN at all, no ASD, no developmental delay, not even dyspraxia or dyslexia. And I'd also be tremendously surprised that any teacher told their best friend that there were no children with additional needs in the class that person's child is in (since it's a bit of a breach of confidentiality and, as others have mentioned, it's also quite an arrogant suggestion since teachers really don't know every detail of a pupil's medical situation at any given time).

I'm sure in my class at school there will be children who are later diagnosed with SEN. I'm sure if you twisted my arm I could probably take a good guess at which children they'll be. I'm sure I still wouldn't share that information with my best friend. Or any parent of any child in my class.

Of course if you live ina country where disabled and challenged children are segregated you are right only those that”can pass”will be in your schools

Yes that's the Mumsnet version but back in Real Life, the SN kids are actually getting their needs met with QUALIFIED SN teachers in A
SN school...after all my mainstream teacher friend isn't qualified to recognise SN in the kids she teaches(as someone upthread said)...but in your world the parents of these kids should be fighting to get them into a mainstream school where the teachers 'don't know much about SN', yeah that makes sense then they can wreck the classrooms in frustration and fear.

And I'd also be tremendously surprised that any teacher told their best friend that there were no children with additional needs in the class that person's child is in (since it's a bit of a breach of confidentiality and, as others have mentioned, it's also quite an arrogant suggestion since teachers really don't know every detail of a pupil's medical situation at any given time)

You need to get out more if you're surprised that friends who trust each other talk about their jobs.

*So basically you go with the “hidden from sight” approach to disability lemonaise?

Wow.

Do you feel the same about all “difference” or is it just disabled people you save this attitude for?*

Stop telling lies. My step-son is absolutely thriving in his SN unit. If he was in mainstream he'd be swallowed up and left behind. He occasionally goes into the mainstream age equivalent class at his school but can't really cope with it. So if it was up to you we should just throw him in and he wouldn't cope and disrupt the other class but hey that's 'inclusion'.